Cam installation//Understanding Bill Silver's notes

[blazesjake]

This is my first honda resto, it's going into my personal collection.
In looking at the cam design, I'm not sure how to interpret Bill's notes on his pp. 46 engine repair guide. Of the three main pieces, what locates the center, and what locates the two cams. Bill mentions .002-4 side play, but once it is initially assembled and not locked down-nothing moves laterally. The only clearance dimensioning I can see is between the inside of the left hand cover and the end of the cam locking bolt, and the right hand cover's counterbore to accept the 1.5 in. diameter section of the point shaft. I don't know if that is what he is talking about. Then, if we are supposed to assemble it to some length where we have some side play ( he mentions developing this clearance before locking down the two cams) , is the location of the center cam gear not critical,. Thanks for any help

[LOUD MOUSE]

What's your location?
When you have both cams installed into the cam sprocket make sure the inside race of the bearings are flush with the with the sides of the cam sprocket unit on both sides and both cams are flush with the bearing center.
Now go to the outer cam ends and drive the bearings flush with the cam ends.
I hold the cam sprocket center with large vise grips and tighten the left side 10mm nut then I use a flat nosed soft steel chisel and drive the set/lock nut on the cam sprocket center counter clockwise to tight.
Now I look at all points of contact of the bearings and other parts to see they are hardflush.
Now I move the cams and bearings to equal measurement to the outside of the head (hammer)
I put the seal in the right side cover and install it and the left side cover.
The end covers center the cam sprocket if all cams and bearings are hard/flush. .....................lm

This is my first honda resto, it's going into my personal collection.
In looking at the cam design, I'm not sure how to interpret Bill's notes on his pp. 46 engine repair guide. Of the three main pieces, what locates the center, and what locates the two cams. Bill mentions .002-4 side play, but once it is initially assembled and not locked down-nothing moves laterally. The only clearance dimensioning I can see is between the inside of the left hand cover and the end of the cam locking bolt, and the right hand cover's counterbore to accept the 1.5 in. diameter section of the point shaft. I don't know if that is what he is talking about. Then, if we are supposed to assemble it to some length where we have some side play ( he mentions developing this clearance before locking down the two cams) , is the location of the center cam gear not critical,. Thanks for any help

[blazesjake]

I am 80 miles east of Minneapolis, Mn. I will follow the points you make in your description.
It is easy to see 'flush with the cam sprocket on the left side, but with the rotary nut it is difficult to see 'flush' with the sprocket on the right side, even if I hand tighten the nut.
Cams flush with the bearing center, I am not certain what you are saying.
note: I have an arbor press, so I carefully installed these bearings on the cams
The bearing on the left side is flush with the cam end, but I have no idea of the right side because of the points cam blocking any view of the end of the cam.
The outer bearings on both the left and right side I had to drive inboard, about .1 in. from flush in order for the head covers to be able to have their sealing surfaces mate with the head surface, the covers each have a circular protrustion which locates in the head.
Now I move the cams and bearings to equal measurement to the outside of the head (hammer ""This I don't understand, given the comment about how the head covers fit"" I may be reading it differently than you intended.

I have the head covers bead blasted, so when I set them in place ( with no gaskets), I feel no drag from the end of the cam. So, since the outer bearing inner race shoulders against the cam, I have the cams located roughly in the right place, but I havent tried to come up with a way to measure the internal clearances which means that if there isn't some sort of internal stop in the gear assembly I could have each cam pushed in too far.

I really appreciate your advice, I am always a bit cautious when something isn't absolutely clear. In a Clymer book on these bikes, there is no mention of any 'fitting', just assemble/install. The Silvers literature is more expansive. I know the guys who designed the motor had it figured out how best to assemble, I just want to get inside 'their' heads.
Rob

[LOUD MOUSE]

All the head parts are designed/made so when the cam parts are tight/flush to each other the end caps CENTER the sprocket.
These parts like many others were designed for quick/mass assembly and LITTLE measuring.
If you are refering to the way a person says to look down the middle of the head and center the sprocket you are reading something that doesn't understand how HONDA did assemble the head.
Read and follow each sentence.
Each part MUST fit to the other tight/flush and I start from the middle and work out.
I hove no trouble seeing the bearing centers touching the other parts.
Maybe a flashlight or feeler gauge. .............................lm

I am 80 miles east of Minneapolis, Mn. I will follow the points you make in your description.
It is easy to see 'flush with the cam sprocket on the left side, but with the rotary nut it is difficult to see 'flush' with the sprocket on the right side, even if I hand tighten the nut.
Cams flush with the bearing center, I am not certain what you are saying.
note: I have an arbor press, so I carefully installed these bearings on the cams
The bearing on the left side is flush with the cam end, but I have no idea of the right side because of the points cam blocking any view of the end of the cam.
The outer bearings on both the left and right side I had to drive inboard, about .1 in. from flush in order for the head covers to be able to have their sealing surfaces mate with the head surface, the covers each have a circular protrustion which locates in the head.
Now I move the cams and bearings to equal measurement to the outside of the head (hammer ""This I don't understand, given the comment about how the head covers fit"" I may be reading it differently than you intended.

I have the head covers bead blasted, so when I set them in place ( with no gaskets), I feel no drag from the end of the cam. So, since the outer bearing inner race shoulders against the cam, I have the cams located roughly in the right place, but I havent tried to come up with a way to measure the internal clearances which means that if there isn't some sort of internal stop in the gear assembly I could have each cam pushed in too far.

I really appreciate your advice, I am always a bit cautious when something isn't absolutely clear. In a Clymer book on these bikes, there is no mention of any 'fitting', just assemble/install. The Silvers literature is more expansive. I know the guys who designed the motor had it figured out how best to assemble, I just want to get inside 'their' heads.
Rob

[G-Man]

I do pretty much as LM describes. The important parts are that the cam sprocket is aligned with the sprocket on the crankshaft and the two cam halves are pressed into the center sprocket sufficiently to get the outer bearings far enough into the head to clear the two outer caps.

I make sure that all bearings are pressed onto the cams as far as they can go and then everything else just works out.

It is easier if you warm the head casting to loosen the interference fit on the bearings.

G

All the head parts are designed/made so when the cam parts are tight/flush to each other the end caps CENTER the sprocket.
These parts like many others were designed for quick/mass assembly and LITTLE measuring.
If you are refering to the way a person says to look down the middle of the head and center the sprocket you are reading something that doesn't understand how HONDA did assemble the head.
Read and follow each sentence.
Each part MUST fit to the other tight/flush and I start from the middle and work out.
I hove no trouble seeing the bearing centers touching the other parts.
Maybe a flashlight or feeler gauge. .............................lm

I am 80 miles east of Minneapolis, Mn. I will follow the points you make in your description.
It is easy to see 'flush with the cam sprocket on the left side, but with the rotary nut it is difficult to see 'flush' with the sprocket on the right side, even if I hand tighten the nut.
Cams flush with the bearing center, I am not certain what you are saying.
note: I have an arbor press, so I carefully installed these bearings on the cams
The bearing on the left side is flush with the cam end, but I have no idea of the right side because of the points cam blocking any view of the end of the cam.
The outer bearings on both the left and right side I had to drive inboard, about .1 in. from flush in order for the head covers to be able to have their sealing surfaces mate with the head surface, the covers each have a circular protrustion which locates in the head.
Now I move the cams and bearings to equal measurement to the outside of the head (hammer ""This I don't understand, given the comment about how the head covers fit"" I may be reading it differently than you intended.

I have the head covers bead blasted, so when I set them in place ( with no gaskets), I feel no drag from the end of the cam. So, since the outer bearing inner race shoulders against the cam, I have the cams located roughly in the right place, but I havent tried to come up with a way to measure the internal clearances which means that if there isn't some sort of internal stop in the gear assembly I could have each cam pushed in too far.

I really appreciate your advice, I am always a bit cautious when something isn't absolutely clear. In a Clymer book on these bikes, there is no mention of any 'fitting', just assemble/install. The Silvers literature is more expansive. I know the guys who designed the motor had it figured out how best to assemble, I just want to get inside 'their' heads.
Rob

[blazesjake]

Thanks again LM and G-man.
I stand corrected in that if I carefully look I can see bearing on the right inner side against the shoulder of the center gear.So, since the inner bearings are shouldered on the cam and if the bearing inner race shoulders against the center gear, the cams are fully engaged. And, the point made about the end caps centering the assembly in the head makes perfect sense, especially from a quick assembly viewpoint. As G-man pointed out, the installation goes great with a warmed up head.
.In thinking about the Silvers book writings about excessive clearance, and your comments about the end cap centering, I am thinking that I could take a vernier measurement of the end bearings recesses into the head, and compare it to the height of the 'cam centering locators' on each cover. I will then 'center' the assembly keeping clearance the same on both sides. Hopefully it will be close to .004 max.

[LOUD MOUSE]

As fro end cap clearance .
If all parts are as they should be and if you have the correct "thin/hard" gaskets (DRY) these isn't a reason to measure anything more.
I'm not sure where Bill got that information you read. (I've read it also.)
Next time I talk to him I'll ask. ...................lm

Thanks again LM and G-man.
I stand corrected in that if I carefully look I can see bearing on the right inner side against the shoulder of the center gear.So, since the inner bearings are shouldered on the cam and if the bearing inner race shoulders against the center gear, the cams are fully engaged. And, the point made about the end caps centering the assembly in the head makes perfect sense, especially from a quick assembly viewpoint. As G-man pointed out, the installation goes great with a warmed up head.
.In thinking about the Silvers book writings about excessive clearance, and your comments about the end cap centering, I am thinking that I could take a vernier measurement of the end bearings recesses into the head, and compare it to the height of the 'cam centering locators' on each cover. I will then 'center' the assembly keeping clearance the same on both sides. Hopefully it will be close to .004 max.