CL crankshaft with an electric starter

[LOUD MOUSE]

OK.
I'll try once more.
The pin bearings were/are lubed from the drilled passage near the right front cylinder/head stud and ------------------------------
The reason is that it's an almost closed bearing assy. LOOK AT IT!
When a crank bearing face at that location gets damaged (and they do) ya can install the ball bearing which as ya look at it is an open bearing and gets all the oil it needs from the splash of the moving crank into the side near the right side balancer. (no mist just oil-when I mentioned mist it was/is because when I applied 145 lb. of air pressure the oil in the passage came/comes out as a mist 0.
The oil for the starter sprocket (HAWK/SUPER HAWK/DREAM) which is on the right side of those cranks gets all the oil it needs (passive other than crank case pressure as the engine runs/turns) from the fact that HONDA drilled the bearing shaft (at the engine side of the shaft and not from the rotor end) just enough to allow a hole from the sprocket bearing surface area to be drilled and allow JUST The CORRECT AMOUNT Of OIL to pass through.
May be a surprise it works and that's The Facts fellers, Just the Facts. .......................LM

Superchicken,

If I understand that last thread, you are suggesting that it's crankcase pressure that is forcing an oil mist into the shaft and that is what is lubricating the sprocket. With both sides of that shaft open to the same crankcase pressure, I'm not sure how that works.

My interpretation was that the oil pumped through the roller bearing was then flowing through the sprocket and out through the hole in the shaft.

Either way, it is not hard to drill a crank to make a CL crank look and work like a CB crank regardless of what that flow pattern is.

The NOS CL crank I have here has a needle roller bearing on the alternator end. That means on a CL the oil flow is in from the top of the crankcase to the bearing and out the inner side into the crankcase.

If the ball bearing does not have an oil drilling, it must be lubricated by oil mist the same as the other side. Interesting

[teazer]

LM, I agree 100% on most of that and you could be right about the way oil travels through the shaft. It doesn't make much sense to me for crankcase pumping pressure to exceed oil feed pressure, but that could be right.

Bottom line is that to run a starter clutch on a CL shaft it does need an oil hole in the shaft and it doesn't matter which type of bearing is fitted. And it doesn't matter which way we think the oil is flowing.

Do you know if the ball bearing is still available? I tried a couple of places but so far no luck on that part number.

[LOUD MOUSE]

I never said """"crankcase pumping pressure to exceed oil feed pressure, but that could be right."""
I'm no engine "engineer" but I can and have looked at many engines and I UNDERSTAND how HONDA lubed these engines.
I have them but I only sell/use them for times I think are good for those who need them to go ride the the bike and understand the value and fun these bikes offer.
I never sell/share items such as these when I think it will enhance the supply of extra/spare parts for someone as at this time I am that someone an can/will determine who gets them.
A feller on this list needed one to get riding and it took a while to complete the deal but the last I heard is riding and enjoying the bike. 440XXXXX
And it wasn't the cost of the part being expensive to him he had to budget and I understood. ........................lm

LM, I agree 100% on most of that and you could be right about the way oil travels through the shaft. It doesn't make much sense to me for crankcase pumping pressure to exceed oil feed pressure, but that could be right.

Bottom line is that to run a starter clutch on a CL shaft it does need an oil hole in the shaft and it doesn't matter which type of bearing is fitted. And it doesn't matter which way we think the oil is flowing.

Do you know if the ball bearing is still available? I tried a couple of places but so far no luck on that part number.

[teazer]

Ed,

All I said was that it didn't make sense to me that oil would flow that way.

In order for oil to travel from the inside face of a crank web towards the outer end and then take a right turn, requires a pressure differential. In other words, the oil at the inner face would have to be at a higher pressure than at the outlet. Both sides of the shaft and bearing appear to be at the same crankcase pressure, so that didn't appear to me to be logical, but as I said before I could be missing something here.

There's no doubt that oil will travel outwards by centrifugal force through the cross drilled hole. Maybe that's enough to create a pressure differential that "sucks" oil mist into the shaft.

And by the way, I am an a fully qualified mechanical engineer, and I come to forums like this to look for more information. I continue to learn - usually by asking questions of others who have other opinions and who have made their own deductions. I never assume that non-engineers are wrong or that just because they have a lot of experience that they are automatically right either. But I do listen and like to discuss things.

I find discussion is a good way to get ideas out in a way we can all learn and think. I try to remain open minded and to consider other points of view. If something doesn't sound logical I tend to go back and ask questions looking for a more complete answer.

I want to learn and to contribute. I don't want to make a living with these old bikes or to besmirch your excellent and well deserved reputation.

[jensen]

Hi Teazer,

Like I said earlier LM is right about this. I build up several CB cranks, but never took a close look at that particular part. I was more worried about the angles and how the crank lined out (and I never saw any lubrication issue's on that side). The replacement bearings don't have a hole, it's mechanically impossible to have a hole in the path of balls, especially in a fast running bearing. Needle bearings is a different story. The reason why this surface is damaged most of the time is not because of the lubrication, but lies within the hardening process that Honda Used those days. The other thing is that due to bending of the crank at higher rpm's the needle bearing is to tight on the outer sides. Look closely to a damaged surface and you will notice that.

Make sure which bearing you need, there are two diameters out there (the early crankcase has an other diameter then the later ones).

Jensen

[LOUD MOUSE]

<<<<<<<<<If something doesn't sound logical I tend to go back and ask questions looking for a more complete answer.>>>>>>>>>>>

This is where I go a totally different way. (remember these are JUST MACHINES)
If for some reason I see statements which I don't agree with or am not sure of I get off the computer and check my parts/data manuals or what ever I need to get to what I am looking for.
A well known HONDA person has published lots of info about these Bikes/Engines over the years and on occasions I've found things which I thought may not be totally correct. (like how come the DREAM Engine has less compression than the CB/CL engines)
Myth is/was that it was the pistons.
After 4 hours of comparing parts I proved the DREAM pistons actually offer higher compression and the difference is in the Head.
I always contact him and explain what I find/found and we discuss the different than published info.
On occasion we see things differently and I assure ya that as a rule one of us is correct and in many/most occasions we share what we find/found so we have things/ideas which are correct.
Unfortunately ideas/info printed earlier can't be corrected but he does update any new data offered to others after that.
Early on when this discussion started I didn't assume where the Starter Sprocket Oil Hole started I went to the shop and "placed 145 LB. of compressed air to the hole on the shaft and that was when I saw the "MIST of air and oil" so I then knew I could/would share that with the forum.
The area only requires a small amount of oil/lube and isn't required to have a lot of pressure as once it's there there's no other place for it to go.
Look back and see how many Answers/Questions/Ideas followed and the answer was so simple to find and I shared it!
Now I must admit that I'm not going to attempt to put a mirror inside the crank case of a running engine to see/prove that the oil in there is not just laying there but I assume it is going everywhere and at all places in there due to the spinning parts and DOES lube that ball bearing sufficiently.
If ya can't figure how a Ball Bearing inside the right side of a running spinning engine without a pressure system gets oiled than look to the other side of the crank and the answer is there.
I "think" that a Ball Bearing can be lubed with a pressure hole as long as the hole is at an angle which causes the oil to be Pulled Along as the balls pass over the hole.
Redundant as the open bearing will get all the oil it requires if the item is designed correctly. .........................lm

Ed,

All I said was that it didn't make sense to me that oil would flow that way.

In order for oil to travel from the inside face of a crank web towards the outer end and then take a right turn, requires a pressure differential. In other words, the oil at the inner face would have to be at a higher pressure than at the outlet. Both sides of the shaft and bearing appear to be at the same crankcase pressure, so that didn't appear to me to be logical, but as I said before I could be missing something here.

There's no doubt that oil will travel outwards by centrifugal force through the cross drilled hole. Maybe that's enough to create a pressure differential that "sucks" oil mist into the shaft.

And by the way, I am an a fully qualified mechanical engineer, and I come to forums like this to look for more information. I continue to learn - usually by asking questions of others who have other opinions and who have made their own deductions. I never assume that non-engineers are wrong or that just because they have a lot of experience that they are automatically right either. But I do listen and like to discuss things.

I find discussion is a good way to get ideas out in a way we can all learn and think. I try to remain open minded and to consider other points of view. If something doesn't sound logical I tend to go back and ask questions looking for a more complete answer.

I want to learn and to contribute. I don't want to make a living with these old bikes or to besmirch your excellent and well deserved reputation.

[LOUD MOUSE]

<<<<<<<<<Make sure which bearing you need, there are two diameters out there (the early crankcase has an other diameter then the later ones).>>>>>>>>>>>

Which bearing is this?. ........lm

Hi Teazer,

Like I said earlier LM is right about this. I build up several CB cranks, but never took a close look at that particular part. I was more worried about the angles and how the crank lined out (and I never saw any lubrication issue's on that side). The replacement bearings don't have a hole, it's mechanically impossible to have a hole in the path of balls, especially in a fast running bearing. Needle bearings is a different story. The reason why this surface is damaged most of the time is not because of the lubrication, but lies within the hardening process that Honda Used those days. The other thing is that due to bending of the crank at higher rpm's the needle bearing is to tight on the outer sides. Look closely to a damaged surface and you will notice that.

Make sure which bearing you need, there are two diameters out there (the early crankcase has an other diameter then the later ones).

Jensen