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CL crankshaft with an electric starter

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LOUD MOUSE
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Post by LOUD MOUSE » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:45 pm

The hole is on the crank end in the middle.
If ya think there isn't much pressure then read how it leaks at the Left/Right front corners when ya don't have things right. ............lm
ricksd wrote:OK, helpful replies. I will start looking for a CB crank, but would also like to have a recipe for converting the CL crankshaft- as parts get 'used up' the day is coming when just buying a crankshaft on Ebay won't be an option.
LM's reply was the answer- the starter sprocket on the crankshaft is stationary when the clutch is disengaged- the crankshaft is spinning in the stationary sprocket- so a good supply of oil is required- an external oiler is out. I hope this picture of the sprocket loads up:
Image[/img]
Just so everyone has a picture of the parts, here's the crankshaft oil hole:
Image
So, the bushing in the sprocket needs oil. Looking at my crankshaft it's hard to tell where the hole ends- it doesn't seem to go through the tapered end of the shaft. If it just goes through the crankshaft/cheek assembly, drilling through the tapered end of the crank may work- the rotor bolt should seal it off.
Does anyone know where this oil hole originates?
The Silver books says there isn't much oil pressure in this engine- doesn't seem like just a hole through the crankshaft could supply enough oil to keep the sprocket bushing from frying.
Thanks for the help.
Rick

jensen
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Post by jensen » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:21 pm

Hi,

The hole runs to the position of the piston pin. Oil is coming from the oil gallery, into the main bearings (inner bearings), into the center crank weight, then via the big-end pin to the right crank weight into the shaft. The right crank part t for a CL77 is different then a CB77.

In my opinion spark erosion is the easiest way to get an hole in there, but better is to replace the CL part and replace for a CB part (crank right) with P/n number 13311-275-010. The easiest way is to replace the CL engine for a CB engine as a unit or change the crank only.

Unless you can press and balance a crank yourself, it will set you back a lot of $$$.

Jensen
assembly of Japanese motorcycles requires great peace of mind (Pirsig)

LOUD MOUSE
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Post by LOUD MOUSE » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:00 pm

If the oil path is as ya say why when I put pressured air at the hole on the taper end did the air/oil mist come out the end of the tapered shaft on the inside of the right side balance weight?. ..............lm
jensen wrote:Hi,

The hole runs to the position of the piston pin. Oil is coming from the oil gallery, into the main bearings (inner bearings), into the center crank weight, then via the big-end pin to the right crank weight into the shaft. The right crank part t for a CL77 is different then a CB77.

In my opinion spark erosion is the easiest way to get an hole in there, but better is to replace the CL part and replace for a CB part (crank right) with P/n number 13311-275-010. The easiest way is to replace the CL engine for a CB engine as a unit or change the crank only.

Unless you can press and balance a crank yourself, it will set you back a lot of $$$.

Jensen

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G-Man
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Post by G-Man » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:47 am

Jensen

Ed is right. The oil path you mention is not continuous. The big end pins are lubricated from a circular gallery in the back of the crank web through a hole in the crank pin. After lubricating the big-end the oil is free to splash around the engine.

I have a centre crank section in my hand. There are no lube holes in that. I have probed at the end of the rotor shaft of a CL77 shaft with a pice of mig welding wire and can only feel the centre-drill hole. i.e. It does not go far enough to reach the sprocket.

I have also forced oil into the oil hole on my CB77 shaft and oil does come out of the end at the crank web. Therefore two different shafts.

Drilling through from the rotor end would sound easiest. You could either seal the gallery with the rotor bolt or drive an aluminum plug in the hole. The silver lining here (for me at any rate) is that there are no roller bearings in this oil path to collect all of the swarf that gets made during the operation.

G
'60 C77 '60 C72 '62 C72 Dream '63 CL72
'61 CB72 '64 CB77 '65 CB160
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Superchicken
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Post by Superchicken » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:37 am

I too had that had a beautiful cl crank that I wanted to electric start. The hole in the center of my crank was deep enough and I made a hole down to it. It was not fun, that stuf was hard. I did it with the dremel it took a lot of effort. The hole is slighty bigger, I don't think it will matter. My motor is not back together yet, tho I believe it will work fine.

ricksd
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Post by ricksd » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:56 am

Good information, now I need to reconcile fact/observations from several experts, LM, Gman and Jensen, into a plan of action.
First, It's a little hard to believe that the same Honda engineers who choose to vent valve guides would rely on unpressurized oil finding it's way into a hole in the crankshaft and up to the starter sprocket bushing, so Jensens' observations of a disassembled crankshaft make sense- oil being forced into the sprocket bushing passage. But, LM and Gman have both found that if you blow into the hole under the sprocket in a CB crank there's a path for the air to escape through the crankshaft stub into the crankcase- it seems that most of any pressurized oil would run out that hole rather than up to the sprocket bushing, and Gman can't find any pressurized oil passages from the rod big end, so no clear picture in my mind yet. Wish I had a CB crankshaft I could cut a section through.
Honestly, I'm not trying to make simple things difficult, but would like to understand how this works, and I expect Superchicken would like to know more before he assembles his engine.
I did try blowing and probing the sprocket oiling hole in my CA crankshaft, but didn't come up with any useful info- I couldn't get any backflow of air from the sprocket bushing hole, but my CA crank is a rusted mess, and passages could be blocked.
Again, thanks for the help to this point, I understand more, but not confident that a hole under sprocket and an axial hole through the crankshaft stub is the complete picture- if that's all there is to it, a rotor bolt could be drilled to act a a drill bushing/guide, and the hole through the stub shouldn't be too difficult.
I'm going to study this more while I try to find a CB crankshaft

LOUD MOUSE
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Post by LOUD MOUSE » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:17 am

I suggest ya take a really good look at any of the C/CA/CB/CL/CP72/77 crank assy and you will find that the oil under pressure goes to the 2 center and right side bearing and the rods and left side bearing are lubed by a SPLASH technique used with many engines.
Of course the valves are oiled with pressure and that oil once it has passed through all the rockers and splashed on all those parts up there, cam chain included finds it's way to the bottom to enter the oil pump and go around again.
HONDA didn't pressure the oil to the starter sprocket cause the pressure would eventually supply more oil than the sprocket will ever need and that the case pressure is plenty at the point.
When ya blow a Clutch Rod seal ya will learn what case pressure can do for soaking the right side of the engine and floor.
I will check one of my CL72/77 crank assy and get back as to the depth of the hole from the balance weight end of the tapered rotor shaft. ..............lm

ricksd wrote:Good information, now I need to reconcile fact/observations from several experts, LM, Gman and Jensen, into a plan of action.
First, It's a little hard to believe that the same Honda engineers who choose to vent valve guides would rely on unpressurized oil finding it's way into a hole in the crankshaft and up to the starter sprocket bushing, so Jensens' observations of a disassembled crankshaft make sense- oil being forced into the sprocket bushing passage. But, LM and Gman have both found that if you blow into the hole under the sprocket in a CB crank there's a path for the air to escape through the crankshaft stub into the crankcase- it seems that most of any pressurized oil would run out that hole rather than up to the sprocket bushing, and Gman can't find any pressurized oil passages from the rod big end, so no clear picture in my mind yet. Wish I had a CB crankshaft I could cut a section through.
Honestly, I'm not trying to make simple things difficult, but would like to understand how this works, and I expect Superchicken would like to know more before he assembles his engine.
I did try blowing and probing the sprocket oiling hole in my CA crankshaft, but didn't come up with any useful info- I couldn't get any backflow of air from the sprocket bushing hole, but my CA crank is a rusted mess, and passages could be blocked.
Again, thanks for the help to this point, I understand more, but not confident that a hole under sprocket and an axial hole through the crankshaft stub is the complete picture- if that's all there is to it, a rotor bolt could be drilled to act a a drill bushing/guide, and the hole through the stub shouldn't be too difficult.
I'm going to study this more while I try to find a CB crankshaft

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