So I removed my left cover to service the clutch and...

LOUD MOUSE · Post by **LOUD MOUSE** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:57 pm

The book calls for a Lock Washer at that location. ????????
With or without any washer that Distance Piece doesn't move.
Even though HONDA did install Lock Washers at the Cam Chain Wheel I find them Loose far to often.
I find that when this is the case I see that the engine has been worked on previously.
50+-. .............lm

48lesco wrote:Here's a CB77 engine that I don't think was ever tinkered with before I took the cover off. It had a 6mm flat washer at that location. I did take a look at pictures of my Dream engine when I replaced the clutch and it did not have a washer there.

It is indeed a little mysterious that there are no lock washers called out inside the left case, but there are on the axle for the cam chain wheel. Same steel bolt going into aluminum.

In general, I would not have a moving/rotating part bearing against the inside of a hex-head bolt unless there was a washer face on that bolt.

Not sure if we helped the original poster???

48lesco · Post by **48lesco** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:04 pm

Bob750 if you're still with us... No, that's not normal:)

rrietman · Post by **rrietman** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:50 pm

the inside of an engine is no place for lock washers. ask any engineer. I have always been surprised at the presence of lock washers on the cam chain wheel. I do assemble them that way (but with plenty of loctite as well). the parts book shows that bolt with a flat washer. thats the way I have seen them come apart. thats the way I assemble them (with loctite). right or wrong, I haven't had any failures.
Randy

LOUD MOUSE · Post by **LOUD MOUSE** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:26 pm

FLAT WASHER.
As I look at the parts books and identify the places I know washers are used I find Washer Spring, Washer Lock and Washer Flat.
That said the books state Washer Lock at the discussed location and Washer, Spring at the cam chain roller.
May I assume a Washer Lock may not be the normal Lock Washer as we know them (Spring Washer?) or was it supposed to be a washer sort of like the one that is on the left side of the crank shaft.
Were it to be the later I can guarantee I've never seen one installed.
Looking at pages 14/17 I see a nut and washer shown near the oil dip stick.
Being this is for the CB77 I am aware there is a plate to hold the valley case cover but it doesn't use washers (page 18) so why would these 2 parts be shown and where would they install. (page shows 10 of this size needed)
Still believe the books are always correct?
To better answer this look at the CA77 parts book.
I see what the book shows and try as I may that book has yet to install a washer at that location before I got the engine. .............lm

rrietman wrote:the inside of an engine is no place for lock washers. ask any engineer. I have always been surprised at the presence of lock washers on the cam chain wheel. I do assemble them that way (but with plenty of loctite as well). the parts book shows that bolt with a flat washer. thats the way I have seen them come apart. thats the way I assemble them (with loctite). right or wrong, I haven't had any failures.
Randy

Snakeoil · Post by **Snakeoil** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:42 am

Having read a modest share of manuals for both British and Japanese vintage bikes, I tend to believe that a spring washer is what we call a lock washer in the US, which is a spring steel washer with a slit in it and the ends offset so that they provide both a spring force on the head of the bolt/nut and bite into the face of both the bolt/nut and other surface when turned CCW. A lock washer is a tab or similar washer that mechanically holds a fastener from turning by bending or otherwise engaging a portion of the washer with a portion of the fastener.

It's taken me awhile to get used to the terminology, having grown up with wrenches in my hands since I was old enought not to be a risk in my Dad's garare. For us, lock washers were always split and offset spring steel washers.

I suspect that there are no words to differentiate these type of washers in Japanese and each is more of a description than a word or two. And depending on who is translating the Japanese manual into English also has an impact on the accuracy. I spent most of my career working in Latin America and speak Spanish. I've listened to presentations given in English had had headphones on to listen to the simultaneous translation in Spanish. I did it sharpen my Spanish skills at first. But I later did it because I would hear translations that just did not make sense. It was because the translator was not technically astute and although they translated the words correclty they used the wrong meaning and hence the wrong word (if that makes any sense). So, I'm sure the same thing happened with our manuals. It surely happened with the owner's manuals. Some of the early Japanese manual are hilarious to read.

regards,
Rob

G-Man · Post by **G-Man** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:00 pm

Rob

From this side of the Pond you have described a spring washer perfectly.... Occasionally available with more than one turn and looking more like a spring as on the CL77 Kickstart lever.

Nowadays, this is what I'd call a lock washer.

http://www.nord-lock.com/#

Also, your description of technical translations echoes my own experience.

I particularly liked the Suzuki TS185 manual which described the bike as having a 'pointless electronic ignition system'. Accurate but hilarious nonetheless.

Honda's description of 'pipe steering' is much more accurate than our 'handlebar' but still sounds wrong.

G

Bob750 · Post by **Bob750** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:45 pm

48lesco wrote:Bob750 if you're still with us... No, that's not normal:)

Ok, so, um, I don't know what happened, but I either didn't get the reply notification months ago for this thread or I did but ignored it. (???) In any case thank you all for chiming in about this. This thread started when I was just doing clutch work and made the discovery. I left the wire in place at that time. But since then, I've disassembled the entire bike...

As some of you may have seen in my rebuild thread, I cut off that rat's nest and removed the bolt. It was a mess in there.

I've since Heli-Coiled it and all is well with that part of the situation. See?

And I did enjoy reading the debate about washers. Yes? No? Spring? Lock? Flat? I don't think anyone mentioned Washer, Plain, which I tend to think is just another word for Flat. But all the talk got me thinking.

Up until now, I have been planning on putting a 6mm spring (lock) washer under the bolt head (as is called for in my CA77 manual -- "Reference 33. Washer, Locking") to ensure the bolt doesn't move, what with it being subject to rotation (however slight) by the movement of the Primary Chain Tensioner. Now I'm not so sure because of this debate.

I've tested the installation, and it looks and feels good to me with a lock washer on it. Without, it feels naked. The way I see it. If there is no washer and the bolt becomes loose, we can guess what would happen, right? If there is a washer, there is very little chance, if I torque it properly, that it will loosen. But if it does somehow back its way off, the risk of a loose lock washer floating around the case is trivial compared to a loose 2-inch bolt (which would have to come off before the washer fell away anyway) floating around in there. Either way there is hardware floating around and no tension on the PC. So I tend to think that putting a lock washer at that location is the most logical solution. It bites the distance piece and the bolt head, putting tension on them. It also presents a smooth surface to the tensioner arm--at least smoother that the six sharp points of the bolt head.

There is this though: the part number in the catalog isn't 94111-06000 (Washer, Spring, 6mm); it's 90432-259-000 (Washer, Locking). This suggests to me that it's not just a spring washer as I'm intending on using, and it's not a tabbed washer if the drawing has anything correct about it. So it could be a washer of similar design to the one that goes under the 4-lobed primary chain drive sprocket nut. But such a part doesn't seem to exist anywhere any longer. So is my spring washer gonna do it for me? Or should I wing it without? Who's buying the drinks if my wife's Dream throws a primary chain? ;-) I can tighten in well enough either way I suppose now that there's a stainless steel Heli-Coil in there.

I hope no one minds me reigniting this thread. I'm sorry it dropped off my radar!

Bob750