Honda vs The British

[G-Man]

Hi

In one of the threads, e3Steve made several comments about the take-up of Japanese machines in England in the 1960s. I am not an Historian but have several personal recollections.

First, the regulation maximum engine size for learners. For a long time this was 250cc and there were a plethora of 'sporty' 250cc bikes in the UK from most British manufacturers. Once the test was passed, riders went on to 500cc and above which meant that the 350class was rather unloved and consisted of 'ride to work' bikes like my 350 Matchless and others. There were also 'road-tax' breaks below 350, I think.

Japanese bikes were better value new than British bikes but the Brits had been around for a long time, most youngsters in England were much poorer than their US counterparts and rode second hand bikes which had been abused by many previous youngsters.

When I started at 16 the law had just changed (73-74) to just 50cc and there were no 'real' 50cc used bikes to speak of on the second-hand market. I had to buy a brand-new Honda SS50 for around £170 which was a vast sum of money. I used that until I was 17 and could buy a 'real' bike. Mine was a BSA C15SS (250) which went three times faster than the Honda at a third of the price! No contest!

Once my bike test was passed, I bought a used 500 Triumph Daytona for, I think, £190. A new Honda was out of the question on my income and used ones were rusty and perceived as expensive to repair. Brit iron was leaky but cheap to fix with tons of cheap second-hand parts available.

The Honda 50s appeared in vast numbers eventually as there was really no British or European competition at that size. Many were bought to ride to work by older riders, even as a second machine for commuting.

The Honda CB450 went down like a lead balloon. One English dealer had to paint all of his stock red to make it look attractive. Where I lived, small Hondas were the preserve of rich kids who could afford to buy new and then moved on to cars. Real bikers bought and mended their own road-burners.

Probably the two Japanese bikes which changed the British perception were the C100/C50 Stepthru's and the CB750. The Mini car ( same price as a Bonneville) probably did most to kill an already declining Motorcycle Industry. The CB750 help create a new, different market in the UK for leisure biking.

My first real taste of Japanese biking came during the long summer of '76. I sold the Triumph for £100 more than I bought it and bought a brand new Suzuki TS185 to 'play' off road. That was quickly followed by the 'budget' Honda CJ250T (no electric start and a 2-1 pipe) when the off-road bug waned...

Just my rambling thoughts

G

[LOUD MOUSE]

Thanks for sharing this with us.
I started with used bikes also (first was 1954 BSA Road Rocket) was in 3 boxes and a frame.
Two CL72's a TS185? and finally my first new bike was 1969 TS 250 followed by a 125 Zundap powered American Eagle a 1973 HONDA CR125M a 1975 YZ250 YAMAHA.
Then back to used bikes with a 1963 CB77 which I ride today then a 1963 CL72 a 1967 CL77 followed by a gaggle of other HONDA CB/CL72/77 bikes to restore and for parts.
Thank goodness I bought all the CB/CL72/77 bikes I could afford so I can do what I do with them now. ................lm

Hi

In one of the threads, e3Steve made several comments about the take-up of Japanese machines in England in the 1960s. I am not an Historian but have several personal recollections.

First, the regulation maximum engine size for learners. For a long time this was 250cc and there were a plethora of 'sporty' 250cc bikes in the UK from most British manufacturers. Once the test was passed, riders went on to 500cc and above which meant that the 350class was rather unloved and consisted of 'ride to work' bikes like my 350 Matchless and others. There were also 'road-tax' breaks below 350, I think.

Japanese bikes were better value new than British bikes but the Brits had been around for a long time, most youngsters in England were much poorer than their US counterparts and rode second hand bikes which had been abused by many previous youngsters.

When I started at 16 the law had just changed (73-74) to just 50cc and there were no 'real' 50cc used bikes to speak of on the second-hand market. I had to buy a brand-new Honda SS50 for around £170 which was a vast sum of money. I used that until I was 17 and could buy a 'real' bike. Mine was a BSA C15SS (250) which went three times faster than the Honda at a third of the price! No contest!

Once my bike test was passed, I bought a used 500 Triumph Daytona for, I think, £190. A new Honda was out of the question on my income and used ones were rusty and perceived as expensive to repair. Brit iron was leaky but cheap to fix with tons of cheap second-hand parts available.

The Honda 50s appeared in vast numbers eventually as there was really no British or European competition at that size. Many were bought to ride to work by older riders, even as a second machine for commuting.

The Honda CB450 went down like a lead balloon. One English dealer had to paint all of his stock red to make it look attractive. Where I lived, small Hondas were the preserve of rich kids who could afford to buy new and then moved on to cars. Real bikers bought and mended their own road-burners.

Probably the two Japanese bikes which changed the British perception were the C100/C50 Stepthru's and the CB750. The Mini car ( same price as a Bonneville) probably did most to kill an already declining Motorcycle Industry. The CB750 help create a new, different market in the UK for leisure biking.

My first real taste of Japanese biking came during the long summer of '76. I sold the Triumph for £100 more than I bought it and bought a brand new Suzuki TS185 to 'play' off road. That was quickly followed by the 'budget' Honda CJ250T (no electric start and a 2-1 pipe) when the off-road bug waned...

Just my rambling thoughts

G

[G-Man]

Thanks for your comments LM. I'm really looking forward to getting my little collection of Honda twins on the road next year. I'm not usually a patient person but have decided to take my time over building these bikes. I have 30 years engineering experience but participating on this forum just shows me the things I have forgotten or never learned.

G

[e3steve]

Good stories, guys!

I started at 15 (1970) when I was a cadet in the Air Training Corps. One of the older NCOs bought a new BSA Bantam D14/4 which he let me ride up & down the parade ground before 'fall-in'; I was hooked!

Then, an ex-cadet who had left school at 15 and had started work, turned 16 in December -- he'd got his provisional licence and already applied for his bike test and booked the earliest date of appointment Dec 6th (his birthday) -- and had bought a new BSA Starfire (WCR 494J). He passed the test the afternoon of his 16th birthday, pitched-up at the end of parade to show off the bike and insisted upon giving me a lift home. No helmet (before the compulsory-wearing law), never been on the pillion of a bike and he fully intended to put the fear of Christ into me; I shat myself during that 10 minute blast but was even more hooked!

I bought my first bike -- a James Captain 200 (197cc Villiers single) -- from the same guy in Jan '71 for the princely sum of £7-10shillings (which became £7-50p the following month). I was due to be 16 in early March, so was bunking school (not a good time to do so, with mock GCE 'O'-level exams looming!) and stripping & painting over the horrible maroon-coloured paint with metallic-orange aerosols (in tribute to my then desire: a '71 Honda CB250 -- the one in the Honda all-model brochure was orange & white). I fitted alloy mudguards (fenders) bought with hard-earned cash from my evenings' & weekends' job pumping gas. I spotted a damaged C50 in a breaker's yard and bought the oval taillight, winkers and flasher relay, fitting them to the old James. Looked even more like a CB250 now!

I passed the test and lost the 'Looney plates' in May and bought my first Honda -- a '64 CB77 in blue/silver, soon to be followed by a black '65 CA95 which, to this day, still remains one of the sweetest twins I've ever ridden.

Later that year I moved up to a '59 (early unit-construction) Triumph Speed Twin 500cc which was TWOC'ed by a 'mate' at a pal's 21st birthday party and subsequently totalled. He paid me off and, with the proceeds, I bought a '60 BSA A7 Shooting Star -- another 500cc -- which just went on & on.

Early in '74 I fell in love with a red Suzuki GT380J which was in the window at Alec Bennett Ltd, Southampton; I ran that for 6 months and traded-up to a Candy Yellow GT380L (for the disc brake and the LED gear position indicator).

I passed my car test in October of '74 and bought my first Mini -- a '68 998cc Mini Cooper Mk II -- and, many cars later(!), eventually (Apr '80) sold the GT380. It just rolled over to 10,000 miles when I delivered it to the buyer and, apart form the dulling lacquer on the casings, was like brand new.

No more bikes 'till Spring of '80 when I took a Honda CB750KZ as part of a business deal; I moved that on at the end of that year.

So here I am, almost full-circle (I wouldn't want another old James Captain!) with a '64-reg'd CB77 that's not for sale.

[G-Man]

Steve

Fantastic! I used to love the sound of those Suzuki's and even more so the Kawasaki triples. If we're going to float back to pre-road riding, I grew up on a farm. My brother bought me (at the age of 12 or 13) a BSA Dandy to ride around the fields. To our US cousins that was a 70cc two stroke that looked a little bit like a C50 but was just pathetic. I loved it though and took the hacksaw to just about everything that wasn't needed to make it go.

Soon after I got a C114 Honda field bike which was fitted (to my ears) with a beautifully sounding hand-beaten megaphone. It made such a fantastic sound and was a proper motorcycle. The big end went and without enough cash or skill to fix it, it was replaced with a BSA Bantam which gave way to a 250cc twin-powered Norman B4 sports which I turned into quite a tasty scrambler.

I've been on the road since the SS50 got me started and the latest 'toy' was a 955i Daytona which has more performance than I can ever use.

I have loved every bike I had and continue to hanker after bikes big and small. A little S90 has just been added to the 'restoration project' and I cannot wait to ride it. My all time favourite and fantasy bike has to be the CB77. Mine will not be perfectly original or standard but it will be just the way I like it. I'm sure that Honda did not spend lots of time or money designing that bike but, somehow, it all just clicks. When built, I shall keep mine for ever!

Long may it last

G