30W Non-detergent - Or is there something better?

[leonvjames]

Yes, couldn't agree more. Regular oil changes at 1000 miles no matter what oil.
Leon. long time owner, 140000 miles approx. On its 4th crankshaft.

[masonmart]

An excellent thread and obviously one that raises temperatures a bit. It’s very topical for me because I have 2 CB77s that I’m now running in and hope to get excellent service life out of. I have no previous long term running experience so am not biased in any way nor expert in any. Reading the thread and links I’d say that for me the following would be the best advice.

1. A detergent multi-grade oil is better than a single grade oil even if I change the oil every 300 miles. This is because I will start and use the bike in a wide range of temperatures and a detergent oil will stop the build-up of sludge in the engine. The filtration bit isn’t an issue as it is a coarse filter anyway and detergent solute is tiny. Detergent removes this crud every oil change rather than leaving it to build up.

2. A modern synthetic oil will be better than a non-synthetic as it has less VII’s that can break down in the transmission and I sometimes leave the bike standing for many weeks. If not a non-synthetic would be fine. The higher grade oil can’t harm the engine so this seems a no brainer?

3. Any API SJ or JASO MA oil should be fine.

4. Running in should initially be done on a 30 grade mineral oil and the first oil should be removed at around 100 miles as this is when most wear has already taken place. The first change shouldn’t be to synthetic but synthetic can (and should?) be used after 1000 miles when running in is complete. In reality this could be myth based but i find it logical. I was advised by a racing friend (Triumphs) and exceptional engineer that a bike is run in after 28 miles and that all real wear is done in this short period and this is a man who has a lifetime of having to fix his own mistakes.

5. 10:40, 10:50, 5:30 synthetics shouldn’t be used on a bike as the multiplier (and hence additives) are too high but a 10:30, 20:50 0r 15:40 oil is fine.

6. Semi Synthetic oils are no better than the base oil and are not worth the extra cost.

I’m very much of the school that thinks 30 grade oil was great in 1965 but is outdated now apart from oiling hinges (sorry about that :-)) and that using it because it was recommended then is regressive and anti-development. I’m not saying it’s wrong only that modern bikes running on modern oils do 250,000 miles with 8000 mile change intervals when looked after and 1960’s bikes usually needed major overhauls at 10% of this. And what can you say about changing oil every 300 miles? Lunacy to me, even old Ducati do better than this and we're talking about a Honda here.

Just my interpretation of course from one of the best threads I've ever read and I'll let you know how it pans out in the real world. The real world is great as it allows choice and disagreement. :-)

[LOUD MOUSE]

Do you feel better now?. ..............lm

An excellent thread and obviously one that raises temperatures a bit. It’s very topical for me because I have 2 CB77s that I’m now running in and hope to get excellent service life out of. I have no previous long term running experience so am not biased in any way nor expert in any. Reading the thread and links I’d say that for me the following would be the best advice.

1. A detergent multi-grade oil is better than a single grade oil even if I change the oil every 300 miles. This is because I will start and use the bike in a wide range of temperatures and a detergent oil will stop the build-up of sludge in the engine. The filtration bit isn’t an issue as it is a coarse filter anyway and detergent solute is tiny. Detergent removes this crud every oil change rather than leaving it to build up.

2. A modern synthetic oil will be better than a non-synthetic as it has less VII’s that can break down in the transmission and I sometimes leave the bike standing for many weeks. If not a non-synthetic would be fine. The higher grade oil can’t harm the engine so this seems a no brainer?

3. Any API SJ or JASO MA oil should be fine.

4. Running in should initially be done on a 30 grade mineral oil and the first oil should be removed at around 100 miles as this is when most wear has already taken place. The first change shouldn’t be to synthetic but synthetic can (and should?) be used after 1000 miles when running in is complete. In reality this could be myth based but i find it logical. I was advised by a racing friend (Triumphs) and exceptional engineer that a bike is run in after 28 miles and that all real wear is done in this short period and this is a man who has a lifetime of having to fix his own mistakes.

5. 10:40, 10:50, 5:30 synthetics shouldn’t be used on a bike as the multiplier (and hence additives) are too high but a 10:30, 20:50 0r 15:40 oil is fine.

6. Semi Synthetic oils are no better than the base oil and are not worth the extra cost.

I’m very much of the school that thinks 30 grade oil was great in 1965 but is outdated now apart from oiling hinges (sorry about that :-)) and that using it because it was recommended then is regressive and anti-development. I’m not saying it’s wrong only that modern bikes running on modern oils do 250,000 miles with 8000 mile change intervals when looked after and 1960’s bikes usually needed major overhauls at 10% of this. And what can you say about changing oil every 300 miles? Lunacy to me, even old Ducati do better than this and we're talking about a Honda here.

Just my interpretation of course from one of the best threads I've ever read and I'll let you know how it pans out in the real world. The real world is great as it allows choice and disagreement. :-)

[masonmart]

Do you feel better now?. ..............lm

Exceptional, thanks for asking. And yourself?

The thread was good but was ultimately inconclusive which is pointless, I want to see what a CB77 user like myself could learn once the opinion was peeled away from the arguments. I welcome any guidance on where what I gained from the thread is definitely not correct. As I say it isn't a right or wrong issue as there are many rights but there is also best modern day practice and that's what I'm looking for.

[sdaigle240]

if you guys "like" oil you should check out the following chapters as well as their forum: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/


I've probably ran over 50 types/weights of oil in my racecar and recorded pressures as a function of various temperature's and rpm's to determine what oil works best for me. i enjoy being fussy with that car.... if theirs anything i learned, its that if you aren't hot lapping an engine, all that matters is that you have oil in the damn thing and change it regularly. I run straight 30 and dont really desire to try and reinvent the wheel on this one - that's probably just because i don't have an oil temp and pressure gauge making me think twice like in the car.

[masonmart]

if you guys "like" oil you should check out the following chapters as well as their forum: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/


I've probably ran over 50 types/weights of oil in my racecar and recorded pressures as a function of various temperature's and rpm's to determine what oil works best for me. i enjoy being fussy with that car.... if theirs anything i learned, its that if you aren't hot lapping an engine, all that matters is that you have oil in the damn thing and change it regularly. I run straight 30 and dont really desire to try and reinvent the wheel on this one - that's probably just because i don't have an oil temp and pressure gauge making me think twice like in the car.

And that is fair enough but you have no real technical reason that straight 30 grade is the best quality option only one that you personally have used on the basis that you don't have data to show otherwise and as long as you change it often enough it's OK? With regards to reinventing the wheel, the wheel has been reinvented by the oil manufacturers as they've dramatically improved oil quality over the years. The recommendation for CB77s also changed from straight ND 30 to detergent 10:30 towards the end of production and the change time from an impractical 300 miles to one thousand miles or more. I'm looking for the quality solution and using 1930s technology oil doesn't seem to be the solution when so much better is available under current API and JASO standards. A cursory read of the technical articles attached here show that there are significant benefits to be had from using a detergent based oil and a multigrade in temperate climates with wide temperature range. For a bike that isn't used very often the benefits of using synthetic oil which keeps the heavily loaded parts covered in oil is fairly clear. Continuing to use what was recommended in the early 60's just because it was recommended then doesn't mean that this is the best solution only that it was the best then.

This isn't intended to be provocative btw, I want the best quality solution. Don't be inhibited from giving your views because of a worry over "flaming" from the experts, there's been no contribution from an oil expert yet although the links that people have posted do add some good technical background.

The grade of oil is only one side of the coin, the other is frequency of change. Does the lack of a fine particulate filter mean that frequent change is essential to get the suspended particulates out of the engine? Why does my VFR need an oil change every 8k miles when a CB77 needs it every 300 miles? Why do we accept this just to maintain a somewhat fundamentalist view that a 1961 recommendation can't be changed whatever the circumstances when even Honda changed it as time and technology moved on? There may be a good reason why continuing to use straight 30 in 2015 is the quality solution but surely a 1961 recommendation isn't that reason?

[G-Man]

Masonmart

Good thinking and reasoning. Engineering is continually evolving and better solutions appear for us to take advantage of. Apart from one or two - most of our bikes are only going to make one oil change per year so it may be an academic argument. Having said that, the metal is much harder to replace than the oil......

G

if you guys "like" oil you should check out the following chapters as well as their forum: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/


I've probably ran over 50 types/weights of oil in my racecar and recorded pressures as a function of various temperature's and rpm's to determine what oil works best for me. i enjoy being fussy with that car.... if theirs anything i learned, its that if you aren't hot lapping an engine, all that matters is that you have oil in the damn thing and change it regularly. I run straight 30 and dont really desire to try and reinvent the wheel on this one - that's probably just because i don't have an oil temp and pressure gauge making me think twice like in the car.

And that is fair enough but you have no real technical reason that straight 30 grade is the best quality option only one that you personally have used on the basis that you don't have data to show otherwise and as long as you change it often enough it's OK? With regards to reinventing the wheel, the wheel has been reinvented by the oil manufacturers as they've dramatically improved oil quality over the years. The recommendation for CB77s also changed from straight ND 30 to detergent 10:30 towards the end of production and the change time from an impractical 300 miles to one thousand miles or more. I'm looking for the quality solution and using 1930s technology oil doesn't seem to be the solution when so much better is available under current API and JASO standards. A cursory read of the technical articles attached here show that there are significant benefits to be had from using a detergent based oil and a multigrade in temperate climates with wide temperature range. For a bike that isn't used very often the benefits of using synthetic oil which keeps the heavily loaded parts covered in oil is fairly clear. Continuing to use what was recommended in the early 60's just because it was recommended then doesn't mean that this is the best solution only that it was the best then.

This isn't intended to be provocative btw, I want the best quality solution. Don't be inhibited from giving your views because of a worry over "flaming" from the experts, there's been no contribution from an oil expert yet although the links that people have posted do add some good technical background.

The grade of oil is only one side of the coin, the other is frequency of change. Does the lack of a fine particulate filter mean that frequent change is essential to get the suspended particulates out of the engine? Why does my VFR need an oil change every 8k miles when a CB77 needs it every 300 miles? Why do we accept this just to maintain a somewhat fundamentalist view that a 1961 recommendation can't be changed whatever the circumstances when even Honda changed it as time and technology moved on? There may be a good reason why continuing to use straight 30 in 2015 is the quality solution but surely a 1961 recommendation isn't that reason?