honda305 Home honda305 Auctions honda305 Gallery honda305 Forum


honda305.com Forum

Login
□ Search
□ FAQ 
□ 
Vintage Honda Owners,
Restorers, Riders and
Admirers

Oil Pump Restoration

User avatar
G-Man
honda305.com Member
Posts: 5678
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Derby, UK
Contact:

Post by G-Man » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:13 pm

Conbs

Good of you to drop by with some sensible questions!

I did actually give your method some thought but the pump body that I was working with was badly scored around the periphery so a new gear of the the same OD would not really restore the pump.

I am told that the culprit for damage to these pumps is broken clutch wires that happily pass through the gauze screen.

I tried lots of options for gears, including designing one myself. The quotes I got were astronomic for those companies who bothered to answer.


In the end I found HPC hears which supplies a range of stock gears. I found that their 14 DP, 10 tooth gear was, strangely, about 1.5mm bigger diameter than the Honda gear despite having the same diametral pitch. The HPC gear comes as a wide blank from which you can cut a pair of gears (importantly with identical outside diameter).

Imagebig gear by graham.curtis, on Flickr

http://www.hpcgears.com/pdf_c33/23.126-23.131.pdf

The bad news and good news is that these gears have a 10mm bore compared with the Honda gears, allowing a little tweaking of the shaft diameters and the centre spacing. The gears cost about $20 each (makes 2 gears).

I pondered making my own "D" bits to do the machining but my little boring head worked just fine. I couldn't find a suitable end mill from stock and don't have (yet) a tool grinder. What you see in the pictures above is what I end up with. 6mm wide gears are easy and the cover plate could be machined like the Capellini versions for even more capacity.

The scary thing is that these pumps are 'designed' to operate at 10,000 rpm.

Incidentally, while doing this I realized that a poor man's fix would be to flip the gears over so that the scores in the casing did not match up with the scores in the gears. New gears are available still but the ones I got from CMS in Holland were rusty. I did buy some Cappelini gears before I realised that the casing was badly scored in several of my pumps.

G
'60 C77 '60 C72 '62 C72 Dream '63 CL72
'61 CB72 '64 CB77 '65 CB160
'66 Matchless 350 '67 CL77
'67 S90 '77 CB400F

Lassociety
honda305.com Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:26 pm
Location: Aurora, CO

Welding

Post by Lassociety » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:18 pm

Has anyone tried TIG welding an aluminum alloy onto the oil pump scoring area and re-machining it to the original size? The only drawback I can come up with is possible warping, and possibly some bubbles inide the weld area. I had a CB77 lower case TIG welded where a screw had been tightened too much and had cracked the case, causing oil to leak. The results were great. My oil pump doesnt look too hot, and Im going to do something soon. Thoughts?

Lassociety
honda305.com Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:26 pm
Location: Aurora, CO

Post by Lassociety » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:19 pm

Has anyone tried TIG welding an aluminum alloy onto the oil pump scoring area and re-machining it to the original size? The only drawback I can come up with is possible warping, and possibly some bubbles inide the weld area. I had a CB77 lower case TIG welded where a screw had been tightened too much and had cracked the case, causing oil to leak. The results were great. My oil pump doesnt look too hot, and Im going to do something soon. Thoughts?

jensey
honda305.com Member
Posts: 384
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:34 am
Location: Netherlands

Post by jensey » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:32 pm

IIRC Jensen performed a similar operation but put two gears in place of one. Seems like he had some kind of binding issues or something.
Yes, I did doubled the gears, and mill more room on both sides, but I started with a good body, and my goal was to pump more oil. What Graham did was taking it a step further.

Nice work Graham, and new pump body's aren't that difficult to get.
assembly of Japanese motorcycles requires great peace of mind (Pirsig)

User avatar
G-Man
honda305.com Member
Posts: 5678
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Derby, UK
Contact:

Post by G-Man » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:30 am

I don't see why that wouldn't work but you'd probably end up re-machining the whole cavity and joint face to get it perfect. My method opens up both the diameter and width of the pump cavity and uses corresponding larger gears which can be bought very cheaply.

Horses for courses. I don't have a TiG welding set but I do have small-scale machining facilities and a good gear supplier less than 20 miles away so my method was tailored to what I have.

My procedure also gives 17% extra capacity from thicker gears and around 16% from larger diameter gears - 33% total.

Image

Image

G
Lassociety wrote:Has anyone tried TIG welding an aluminum alloy onto the oil pump scoring area and re-machining it to the original size? The only drawback I can come up with is possible warping, and possibly some bubbles inide the weld area. I had a CB77 lower case TIG welded where a screw had been tightened too much and had cracked the case, causing oil to leak. The results were great. My oil pump doesnt look too hot, and Im going to do something soon. Thoughts?
'60 C77 '60 C72 '62 C72 Dream '63 CL72
'61 CB72 '64 CB77 '65 CB160
'66 Matchless 350 '67 CL77
'67 S90 '77 CB400F

Lassociety
honda305.com Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:26 pm
Location: Aurora, CO

Post by Lassociety » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:09 pm

Well I finally decided to TIG weld the oil pump. Fortunately I got good weld area penetration and no warping that I can tell. There was good fusion, and a little bit of parent metal melt back, so the machining should take place on fresh 4000 series aluminum. I realize it doesn't look very pretty in the photo, but the weld is strong, and as far as I can tell there are no bubbles in the weld puddle. It's pretty hard to weld on alumininum that is so smalll, and I was able to avoid damaging the steel shaft bushing and threaded areas of the casting. Anyway, I shipped it to a friend who is very excited about milling out the gear cavity and shaping everything up. I will let you guys know what I end up with. If this experiment goes wildly wrong hopefully I can get my hands on another pump!
Attachments
image.jpg
image.jpg (104.22 KiB) Viewed 3550 times

User avatar
G-Man
honda305.com Member
Posts: 5678
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Derby, UK
Contact:

Post by G-Man » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:16 am

Nice job.

Interesting to see the finished result. What welding equipment did you use?

Do you have undamaged gears to put in there?

G
'60 C77 '60 C72 '62 C72 Dream '63 CL72
'61 CB72 '64 CB77 '65 CB160
'66 Matchless 350 '67 CL77
'67 S90 '77 CB400F

Post Reply




 

CB-77 | CYP-77 | Road Test | Riding Log | Literature | Zen | Marketplace | VJ Survey | Links | Home