30W Non-detergent - Or is there something better?

[jensen]

Hi,

just change it every 1000 km and mount a magnetic oil plug.
what can go wrong ?, try it, don't worry, you'll be happy.

The only reason I use a paper filter instead of the centrifugal filter is that I don't want to change it every 1000 km, but every 4000 a 5000 km.

Jensen

[sotxbill]

my 68 cl450 manual states .. do not run 30wt non detergent oil.. the 450 has a spinner oil filter also.

so both my 305 manuals and my 450 manual recommend the heavy duty muti-weight oils.. so where did the non detergent recommendation come from?

Are there some early manuals that say use nd30 oil somewhere?????

[Goodysnap]

so where did the non detergent recommendation come from?

I'm sure all of us have seen the casting near the oil fill that is stamped SAE30 Above 60, SAE20 Below 60 . I would assume this was the required weight oil when the bikes were manufactured. I firmly think that any engine(for that matter) should be lubricated with whatever the manufacturer recommends as far as weight and quality ratings. Some of us choose to use what works and thats fine too. I say run what you like. Alot of todays car engines are very weight sensitive and can cause major troubles if the wrong viscocity or oil type is used , requardless of the name on the bottle.

[FAST FRED]

e3steve, I HAVE RUN SEVERAL TYPES OF OIL IN MY CL77. I HAVE FOUND THAT ANY OIL CONTAINING ANY SYNTHETIC COMPONENT TENDS TO ACCELLERATE ANY PRESENT OIL LEAK YOU HAVE ALREADY AND GIVE YOU A COUPLE MORE. IT SEEMS THE MOLICULE STRINGS IN SYNTHETIC OIL ARE VERY SHORT COMPARED TO PETROLEUM. THIS MAKES THE OIL THINNER AND LETS IT WEEP THROUGH WORN OIL SEALS OR GASKETS LONG BEFORE STRAIGHT PETROLEUM WILL. I HAVE USED SOME BLENDS IN MY BIKE (MOTULE 5100 PETROL-SYNTHEIC BLEND) BUT WAS FORCE TO RETURN TO STRAIGHT PETROLEUM (HONDA GN4) TO STOP THE WEEPS AND LEAKS. I AM NO EXPERT, THIS IS ONLY WHAT I HAVE EXPERIENCED.
FAST FRED

[jensen]

Fast fred,

I understand what you are saying, but worn seals should be replaced, no matter what oil you use.
If the engine is leaking, find the reason why, and fix it.

If packings starts leaking with a synthetic oil it says everything about the state of the packings.

The story about long versus short molecules is right but when using a mineral oil, these long molecules will brake down into shorter pieces., with the same results.

If the engine makes more noise with a 10W40 oil then a 30W oil, it indicates that a revision will be needed because the engine is worn.

If the engine and oil pump are not in a healthy condition, don't use a "lighter oil", it will cause the things reflected above.

If you want to sell a worn and noisy engine, just use oil 50W instead of 20W. The engine will sound as new.

But in this case you sell it to yourself, so if you use a lighter oil in your engine and everything starts to leak it says everything about the state of the engine.

About the grade I can only say, that the grade you use is very imported in MODERN engines, it has everything to do with the pressure of the oil in bearings (no rollers). But in this particular engine there are only roller bearings, and no pressure is needed within a specific range.

The only concern is the oilpump, it has to pump a certain volume, if the pump is not capable to do that the flow back in the pump itself is to high. You can use a higher grade oil to get less flow back, but you also can conclude that the oil pump is not that good anymore.

I tested this particular point with a new oil pump, there was enough pressure and flow with a 5W according to Honda specs, so I don't see why a 10W in this engine is a bad choice.

About the spinner oil filter, I also found some stuff in my spinner oil filter using a fully synthetic oil, so it works (like clutch plate pieces). If the filter contains a lot black sludge it says everything about the state of the piston rings and pistons and the oil you use. (mineral oil WILL burn and be found as sludge in the spinner filter).

I really don't want anyone to subscribe what oil to use, but arguments why and why not should be real world ones, not fiction.

A synthetic oil will not upgrade your worn engine. But using a synthetic oil in a engine according to specs will keep the engine within specs much longer than any mineral oil will do.

Jensen

[e3steve]

Thanks for all the input, guys; interesting to read all your perspectives! I have to admit that I know pretty much Jacques Merde about oil, apart from the facts that it lubes and cools and carries the shed-off crud to the filter. I thought I understood a bit about viscosity, but got my wires crossed over the transition, owed to temperature changes, from 20 Redwood seconds to 50 Redwood seconds -- the 'counts' for 50ml to pass through a known orifice. Thanks G-Man for putting me straight.

soxtbill wrote:

Are there some early manuals that say use nd30 oil somewhere?????

I was referring to Ed's (lm's) advice based upon his experience -- and no-one knows more, or has had more experience, than Him about these motors.
Goodysnap wrote:

I'm sure all of us have seen the casting near the oil fill that is stamped SAE30 Above 60, SAE20 Below 60 . I would assume this was the required weight oil when the bikes were manufactured. I firmly think that any engine(for that matter) should be lubricated with whatever the manufacturer recommends as far as weight and quality ratings. Some of us choose to use what works and thats fine too. I say run what you like.

I agree. I also think that lube technology has move on a tad since the '60s........

But the single, most determining factor that led to my decision to opt for 20w50 was Vince's post:

I just read an article in Classic Bike Magazine about oil, and what kind to use for vintage bikes. As I didn't see any reference to 1960's Japanese bikes, I e-mailed John Rowland with the R&D Department at Silkolene (he was a consultant for this article).

Here is his response to me, and you can make your own decisions:

"I have always believed that using modern oils in older machinery is entirely beneficial. In air cooled engines with low-output oil pumps it is better to avoid low viscosity grades, but the modern antioxidants and anti-wear compounds together with dispersancy and detergency ‘built-in’ to modern lubricants prolong the life of both older and modern engines. I’m afraid there’s no such thing as a multigrade non-detergent oil…thank goodness! With detergent/dispersant oils (which were around in 1956, and very much accepted and appreciated by 1966) carbon particles are suspended in harmless microscopic form, and are NOT removed by oil filters, normal or centrifugal. Oil filters are just ‘bolt stoppers’. They remove relatively large particles. That is their job.
Unfortunately, many people think that ‘monograde’ oil is ‘straight’, i.e. non-detergent, but completely non-detergent straight oils were rare even in 1966. I find it hard to believe that Honda would have made life difficult for both their engines and their customers by recommending 1930s technology. (I use a full detergent and all the rest monograde 40, Titan TXE 40, in a 1934 Matchless 1000cc V-twin, and it’s still OK after 60,000 miles since the last rebore and new pistons! I also cover about 2500-3000miles per year. On dreadful 1930s oil these engines and most others were ready for a total overhaul at 20,000.) My 1963 ‘A-Series’ engine in a 1960 Sprite, outside the lab right now, runs on Pro-4 15W/50, and is all the better for it!
So, I recommend Pro-4 15W/50, or Comp-4 20W/50 for your Honda. Both of these oils are widely used in recent (post-1950) classics."

I've read Jensen's opinions regarding the poor filtration qualities of a centrifuge when using synth oils; Jensen, you've put my mind at rest as, when my motor is rebuilt, it shall be serviced every 500 indicated miles anyway. For the cost and the time it takes, why risk any longer? My current powertrain has over 30k miles; the little ends are screwed (I have oversized gudgeon pins for my rebuild) and some gearbox bearings are starting to complain. But it doesn't smoke, has quite good compression (I have yet to arm myself with a compression tester) and yomps up to 85mph without breaking into a sweat; although I wouldn't hold it there for more than a minute or two.

I had a SAAB 900 turbo, back in the early '80s, and, due to recommendations from from a Garrett AiResearch agent, used Castrol GTX -- a mineral oil (then); that advice cost me 3 turbochargers within 2000 miles! The fully-floating bushes were coking up due to the oil baking. I moved on to SAAB's own Turbo Oil -- synth -- and never another problem. And the car was driven hard! It was an 8-valve, fitted with an intercooler AND water injection, and with a wastegate max-bleed of 18psi (up from the standard of 10.2). 182bhp at the wheels, on a dyno -- up from the standard of 145 at the crank.

Needless to say, my next car -- a new Sierra Cosworth -- only ever got filled with Mobil Super 1 synth. I wasn't going to risk coking again.

Boy, do we all ever learn something here, or what! Great info; and thanks to all members for their expertise so far.

[jensen]

Hi Steve,

Maybe I wasn't clear why the spinner oil filter doesn't work as good as a paper filter, and I apologizes for that, I'll try to explain it in a better way.

The principal of a spinning oil filter seems to be simple but isn't when you look at the details.

The idea is that by centrifugal force particles are driven toward the edges of the filter where these particles will cumulate. Once in a while you clean the filter and the process starts over again.

The centrifugal force on the particles is depending on the circular speed of the filter and the weight of the particle and the distance of the particle from the center.

Fc= m*w2*r (2 is square)

Fc is the centrifugal force
m is the mass of the floating particle
w is the circular speed
r is the radius or distance from particle toward the centre

In this particular case (honda 305) the w (circular speed) is not constant, it changes linear with the rpm, it's influence in the formula (thus on the particle) changes with the square of that.

The first experiences with full synthetic oil (5W20) I had where with Honda SS50 / CD50 engine.
I experienced that, when I used the oil, the engine was cleaned within a few hundred miles, and everything what was lying around in the cases would accumulate in the spinning filter (part of the clutch). So, in this case the spinning filter is working fine.

Later I experimented with full synthetic oil on larger engines (CB72) and found the same results.
The first conclusion was that the spinning filter works fine with full synthetic oil, so I started using this oil in a rebuild engine (and a new oil pump). Every 1000 km I cleaned the spinning oil filter and every 4000 km I changed the oil. After 12.000 km I was curious how the internals of the engine would look like, so I decided to open it up. Everything was in as new condition and measurements after 12.000 km where comparable with the initial values before installation.

So nothing wrong here ? Yes and no. I also inspected the oil pump and I found wear at the oil pump gears (as stated it was new 12.000 km ago). I checked with the oil pumps used in the
small displacement engines and there was no sign of wear. Time for looking for differences.

It took a while, but in the end I found the few reasons for the wear on the oil pump in the CB72 engine. The mean reason is the difference in construction between the oil filters, and I will explain with the formula above.

When I compared the values in this formula for the two engines I found a few differences.

Mass off the floating particles in both engines are (assumed) the same.

The radius of the area where the particle is (toward the centre) in the centrifugal filter is depending of the radius of the filter itself, and here I found a difference in construction. The radius of the small displacement engine is a little bigger then in a CB72, so the force on the particle is higher.

The circular speed (w) is depending on how fast the filter is turning around, and here I found the also construction differences. In the small displacement engine the oil filter is attached to the clutch (part of the clutch) and this clutch is directly attached to the crank. Therefore the speed of the filter is the same as the crank speed. In the CB72 it’s not directly attached to the crank but the power is transmitted by a chain. The chain gears on the crank and oil filter would be the same there isn’t any difference, but this is not the case. The filter runs with a higher speed then the crank, not much, just a little (24/22 teeth).

The difference in driving styles are also responsible for a difference in speed of the filter.
Since the crank speed is depending on the rpm, the rpm of the engine dictates the force (Fc) on the floating particle. I ride the small displacement engines with much higher revs as the CB72 engine, because of the lack on power at certain speeds. Where I tend to run my CD50 at a constant speed of 55 km/hour the engine is running over 7500 rpm. I calculated with an average of 7000 rpm. At the CB72 I’m not running this rpm as often as I do on the CD50. I calculated with an average rpm of 4500 for the CB72.

So, when we look at the impact on the force on the particle, with the data above :

Fc for the CB72 compared to the Fc for the CD50 :

Mass of particles is the same, so m (cb72) = m (cd50)
Radius of the CB72 is 0.8 of the CD50, so 0.8 r(cb72) = r (cd50)
Circular speed of the CB72 is 0.64 of the speed of the CD50, so 0.64 w (cb72) = w (cd50)
The construction factor between CB72 and CD50 is (24/22), so 1.09 w (cb72) = w (cd50).

When filled in :

Fc (cd50) = m.w2.r and Fc (cb72) = m.((1.09*0.64)w)2.0.9 r
Fc (cd50) = 1 m.w2.r and Fc (cd50) = 0.43 m.w2.r

This means that the centrifugal force on a floating particle in the CB72 is a halve of the centrifugal force on the same particle in the filter of the CD50

A full synthetic oil is a very powerful detergent, it will clean the engine very good and drop the particles in the filter due to the above explained principal. The very small particles (like cool) are not filtered out by the filter, but don’t do any harm to the engine either.
But if the detergent power of the oil exceeds the influence of the Fc on the particles in the filter, these particles will not be held in the filter and start floating around in the oil.

This means that when the running speed of the engine is low (rpm) the oil starts cleaning the filter itself, and this is probably why I found wear to the oil pump gears. In the breaking-in process I never push the machine to it’s red line, so dirt collected in the filter was washed out and went through the pump.

The conclusion of the oil analyse was that there where a lot of particles floating around in the oil, which should be filtered out.

After this ‘discovery” I drained the oil more often, found less particles in the drained oil, and the oil pump stayed within specs.

This is the reason why I developed an oil pump with a paper filter, sometimes I like to ride low rpm’s (as a tourer) without the knowledge of ruining my oil pump, and I don’t want to change the oil every 1000 km or so.

I analysed the oil and after 6000 km, the oil is still good enough to use.

Like I stated earlier, with this oilfilter solution I can use all the benefits of a full synthetic oil without the problems it causes at low revs.

So before you put a half synthetic / full synthetic oil into you engine, make sure that your oil filter is clean. If there's any sludge in your engine cases it will be washed out by the new oil and dropped into the spinner oil filter. Needless to say you have to check the oil filter within a very short period after using the new oil, depending on how clean the internals are.

I hope this explains a little more about the choises I made.

Jensen