30W Non-detergent - Or is there something better?

[LOUD MOUSE]

Lets get this understood.
I use the oil I want in my HONDA engine and never a problem.
I do the same in the 4 cars and 2 lawn mowers I own.
When I need your advise as to what oil to use I'll ask for it. .............LM

LM, your not concerned about the viscosity changes and the shearing of the molecules with the lowest grade of oil made?

btw,, do any of the modern motorcycles recommend 30wt non detergent oils?


the old model t restorers have to make the original transmission oil for their model T's as its no-longer made. At least the ones who insist on the original.

Because I've always used it with GOOD RESULTS and never a problem as you state.
I reply when asked by others what oil I use and I answer "30W ND and if they/you don't use it I don't care one small bit. ............lm

<<<<<<<<<<<I really don't know why anyone would go by an old spec that was stated when hd oils did not exist and had not been invented yet. a spec that was issued back when car engines would only last for 60,000 miles between overhauls.>>>>>>>>

cummins fleet guard has a lot of interesting oil filter documentation. For diesels that get a million miles between overhauls, they build a 3 stage filter. One stage is normal filter, one stage is designed to trap moisture and the last stage is a centrifical filter that spins the oil to get the soot to clump and stick in the filter. Soot is a microscopic particle that can not be filter in the normal sense, but the centrifical filter will make it clump and fall out of the oil. Some filters are even 4 stage with a extra fine filter that will bypass when its full. Amsoil also has 2 stage filter or better, but I'm not a amsoil person.

So yes,, even in detergent oils, a centrifical oil filter will spin out particles and make them clump or stick to the side of the spinning filter.


Bill Silvers recomends a hd multi weight oil in the restoration book that I have. Most 30 weight non-detergents oils are the cheapest oil you can get and are usually group 2 base oils. The have zero additives and are most likly to breakdown, thicken up under hd use. As these oils are used, the light portion boils off in fumes and leaves the waxy parts to burn up the engine. If you run 30 weight, you better change you oil often as you have no protection built in.
HD oils have combo bases of group 3 and group 4 oils, with robust additives like extreme wear additives, anti-foaming additives and detergents to keep sludge from forming. All of the hd attributes are needed especially in air cooled engines. The ultra refined base oils do not change thickness as they wear. They do not boil off and out the vent tube especially where there is a lot of air movement in the crank case like on the diesel versions or maybe an ultra high rpm engine like a motorcycle. The zdp additives only come into play where there is exteme heat and then they actually bond to the ultra hot areas to form a boundry lubricaton area. Non-detergent oils simply have no high heat or high wear protection.

I really dont know why anyone would go by an old spec that was stated when hd oils did not exist and had not been invented yet. a spec that was issued back when car engines would only last for 60,000 miles between overhauls.

[sotxbill]

fine,, but dont cry when you recommend something and others have different opinions... you run lawnmower oil in your bike... great we get it... ITS UNDERSTOOD!!!!!!

HOWEVER HONDA YAMAHA AND THE JAPANESE MOTORCYCLE MAKERS AND EVERYONE ELSE DISAGREES WITH YOUR ADVICE IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE...

YOU CAN RUN LAWN MOWER OIL IN ANYTHING YOU WANT...

ITS UNDERSTOOD!!!!!!!!!!!

FOR THE REST OF YOU our bikes dont run at 3800 rpms and we need to move on.

please see jaso.. and jaso "MA" (4 stroke motorcyle oil that runs the engine and transmission with a wet clutch.. jaso "MB" oils for the best in anti friction modifiers, but will cause the clutch to slip, so get the MA oils built for our bikes... jaso is the japanese motorcyle producers association recommendation for oil in Japanese motorcycles.

and see API for oil performance tests that are back up by scientific testing since 1960. They actually measure piston skirt scuffing, wrist pin wear, cam follower wear, foaming, volitility changes that cause oil to thicken over time as the lighter portions boil off, shear of molecules due to extreme pressure and heat that cause the oil to get too thin under heavy loading. See the MACK t12 test for ring and piston wear. The Noack volitilty test to see how much boils off and cause it to thicken. 30wt nd fails.. See the high temp /high Shear viscosity test where the oil is thinned down under extreame heat and pressure at the cam shafts and other pressure points... 30wt nd oil fails..See the cold cranking test at -30degree centigrad, 30wt fails.. see how the testing has developed over the years beyond 30 wt oils to ultra 5w50 oils, how newer oils perform like 5 weight oil at zero degrees and like 50 weight oil when at 250 degrees so that the engine can lubricate in cold weather where 30wt non detergent oils will harden up to quick sand.
one of the newer specs was when gm started loosing cam shafts in the 80s... newer oils have to cling to the parts even after sitting for months so that a cold start, will still allow the parts to have protection. and you use 30wt hinge oil that fails everyone of these tests and have the balls to recommend it to others and then get snippy when someone has a...a different opinion????

http://www.api.org/certifications/engin ... _Guide.pdf

note: some of the oil our 30wt nd friend talks about,, is no longer recommend for engines built after 1930..
for bearings are no long ""poured in babbirt" bearings that a detergent would literally clean and wash away the bearing material. " I dont believe this is a problem on a 1960 engines so the reason for using non detergent 30 wt oil is pretty much void. void since 1930... DONT use a detergent oil in engines with soft babbit bearings.. the kind you pour into the cap and then sand down. also used on some 100 rpm marine engine up to the 50's..

And theres a truck load of testing and spec from the europeans under the ACEA..
acea has some really severe hd oil specs that can exceed the american specs..

remember the europeans have no ""middle oils"" they only have low end oils and very high end oils... where the americans have been into better oils for years and have a legacy of middle to high oils that did not exist elsewhere... so this will help explain the initial euro specs... either its cheap lawnmower style oils, or its really great top of the line oils... they did not have chevron bring its group III bases to the market as the american did. the high end group II and group III bases gave us a totally radical great oil spec that is 95 percent as good as the goup iv specs but at half the price. Chevron pioneered the hydro treament of group 1 raw oils and this treament stripped off the heavy and light molecules so that only one very very pure molecue of a special size of oil molecule is left. its and ultra pure base of dinosar oil. the heavy parraffins and light volitiles are stripped off and out.. the remaning oil is a perfect "ball bearing" so to speak with almost perfect properties of the group iv and group v synthectic oils made from esthers and other man made chemicals. So the american and european specs are a bit different in that respect as the americans had a market for better-middle oils earlier.

see http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/pub/0 ... and_HD.pdf

and notice that a lot of their tests are astm tests taken from the us api test standards but the test may have slightly lower or higher standards.. So all in all the american and euro oils are somewhat parallel in a lot of things but a little bit different.. so a mobil one oil here will not be the exact same mobil one formula that is sold in europe

Come on lm read and learn... I havent refreshed my oil books in over 10 years but can tell you the door hinge oil is not the way to go... After I retired the first time, I moved on..

Ironically once an oil additive formula is tested and approved, its used by many different manufactors of oil with different labels so they dont have to pay for the very expensive testing procedures... There are special companies and do nothing more than test packages and formulas and then sell them to the producers who then blend the oil and package it under many different labels.
So thats why I dont worry about the brand as much as the rating and type and of course price. But I DONT run lawn mower oil!!!!!!!


Then theres a new hdmo standard that suppose to be a world wide standard... and guess what oil is absolutly worst and used as a basis of comparison... in other words, its the worst possible oil that money can buy...

then there's ilsac and there standards.... guess what??


see where the 30 wt non detergent oil falls and what its wear spec is.. 4ball wear test, what its shear spec is, what its extreme pressure spec is. look at group 1 oils the lowest with no perfomance specs what so ever and find the 30 wt oil.. its really lawn mower oil.. replace MOTOR every 3 years or 300 hours... and your good to go..

see why 30wt non detergent has no limit on heavy paraffins, ash and about every other junk you can put in an engine. that 30 wt has the lowest rating of any oil out there. its rated as door hinge oil and sewing machine oil. well they are actually classified asNon-vehicle oils """"Other kinds of motors also use motor oil, as well as engines that are not in vehicles such as those for electrical generators. Examples include 4-stroke or 4-cycle internal combustion engines such as those used in many "walk behind" lawn mowers."""". Made to run for a couple of hours and then get shut off... guess you could be sure not to ride you motorcyle more than one hour a week, only 3 months a year, and then get a new motorcyle every 3 years... and dont forget,, in cold weather, start the motor with 20 weight oil,, warm it up.. then stop and change to 30 weight for rides up to 20 miles then change to 40 weight for summer and long trips... then stop and change oil back again.

ld mouse can run urine in his crank case but some will read a bit further... so ldm,, dont get excited, get educated...

try reading

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html

as the above article correctly said you dont want the cheapest or the most expensive. you want the one designed for your application. and I dont drive a cl 305 door hinge...


YES,LM I UNDERSTAD YOUR OPINION AND I HAVE MINE!!!!

I WILL NOT TELL YOU WHAT TO RUN... I WILL BACK UP WHY I DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU TELL OTHERS!!!

NOW IS THAT OKAY??????? OR DOES ONLY YOUR OPINION COUNT?????


and you run 30 wt in a modern car??? geeze.. most lawn mower manufactors dont even recommend 30wt nd oil anymore in modern lawn mower engines... whats with you,, did you get stuck in the 60's and have a melt down?? I bet you still change your car oil every 3000 miles and your engine everyother oil change.

I know a guy that still plugs radial tires and then wonders why they separate and why he cant get any prorate on them...

gotta wonder why Bill Silvers is so against 30 wt oil?? what was he thinking...

"use a premium quaility 10-30wt oil for break-in purposes and a 10-40wt oil especially if running at high speeds or at elevated summer temperatures. After break-in, a synthectic oil my be used..... page 50 of the Honda engine restoration guide...Bill Silvers

and then theres my owner manual,, but its a reproduction manual for a honda cl77 305 model... guess even then honda realized that a multi weight hd oil was the only way to go...

but who is Honda, Yamaha, BMW, Duccati, Bill Silver, API JASO, ACEA when we have LM....the lawn mower oil expert.

jaso "MA" oils are probably the best oils for our bikes has they still aren't concerned about catalytic converters where most the the great automotive and diesel oils have cut back additives in the last couple of years to keep from ruining the converters... But even these automotive oils are far better than a non rated 30 wt oil. In api testing when the hd oils show 70% improvement in wear results,,, guess what they are comparing it to??????? You guess it... 30 non detergent,, the worse oil in the world... only used dirty lawn mower oil would be worse than lawn mower oil so you cant go much lower. all oil specs are base on and compared to how fix a wear problem and every test is based on plano cheap 30 weight as the worse you can do.. Its the zero specced oil..


YES LOUD MOUSE<< WE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU RUN 30WT DOOR-HINGE OIL IN YOUR BIKE, your lawn mower and both of your cars. WE understand. and we will not tell YOU what to use.

MY ADVISE IS FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD. PLEASE GO READ..PLEASE..



IS THIS UNDERSTOOD??????

and since you go against all modern science and tests... I will ignore you advice and NOT ask for it on oil.. so when I want to run the worse oil in the world, as defined by all the testing institutes, I will ask Loud Mouse.l

now... you still are a good guy and know a lot about motorcycles and give excellent advice on MOST things and I for one, appreciate it.

Lets get this understood.
I use the oil I want in my HONDA engine and never a problem.
I do the same in the 4 cars and 2 lawn mowers I own.
When I need your advise as to what oil to use I'll ask for it. .............LM

LM, your not concerned about the viscosity changes and the shearing of the molecules with the lowest grade of oil made?

btw,, do any of the modern motorcycles recommend 30wt non detergent oils?


the old model t restorers have to make the original transmission oil for their model T's as its no-longer made. At least the ones who insist on the original.

Because I've always used it with GOOD RESULTS and never a problem as you state.
I reply when asked by others what oil I use and I answer "30W ND and if they/you don't use it I don't care one small bit. ............lm

<<<<<<<<<<<I really don't know why anyone would go by an old spec that was stated when hd oils did not exist and had not been invented yet. a spec that was issued back when car engines would only last for 60,000 miles between overhauls.>>>>>>>>

cummins fleet guard has a lot of interesting oil filter documentation. For diesels that get a million miles between overhauls, they build a 3 stage filter. One stage is normal filter, one stage is designed to trap moisture and the last stage is a centrifical filter that spins the oil to get the soot to clump and stick in the filter. Soot is a microscopic particle that can not be filter in the normal sense, but the centrifical filter will make it clump and fall out of the oil. Some filters are even 4 stage with a extra fine filter that will bypass when its full. Amsoil also has 2 stage filter or better, but I'm not a amsoil person.

So yes,, even in detergent oils, a centrifical oil filter will spin out particles and make them clump or stick to the side of the spinning filter.


Bill Silvers recomends a hd multi weight oil in the restoration book that I have. Most 30 weight non-detergents oils are the cheapest oil you can get and are usually group 2 base oils. The have zero additives and are most likly to breakdown, thicken up under hd use. As these oils are used, the light portion boils off in fumes and leaves the waxy parts to burn up the engine. If you run 30 weight, you better change you oil often as you have no protection built in.
HD oils have combo bases of group 3 and group 4 oils, with robust additives like extreme wear additives, anti-foaming additives and detergents to keep sludge from forming. All of the hd attributes are needed especially in air cooled engines. The ultra refined base oils do not change thickness as they wear. They do not boil off and out the vent tube especially where there is a lot of air movement in the crank case like on the diesel versions or maybe an ultra high rpm engine like a motorcycle. The zdp additives only come into play where there is exteme heat and then they actually bond to the ultra hot areas to form a boundry lubricaton area. Non-detergent oils simply have no high heat or high wear protection.

I really dont know why anyone would go by an old spec that was stated when hd oils did not exist and had not been invented yet. a spec that was issued back when car engines would only last for 60,000 miles between overhauls.

[sotxbill]

It just occurred to me what all the black stuff is that I clean out of the oil filters on the bikes when I first buy them.. Its the heavy paraffin chains shearing out of the oil and thus turning to sludge..

or to put it in english, its the 30wt door hinge oil breaking down...


Please do not run "MB" rated oil in honda wet clutch applicatons.

[LOUD MOUSE]

In my opinion if ya would spend as much time obtaining info/data which is available on eBay and other sources as ya do with the oil thing ya could educate yourself as to how and why the bike ya bought works and maybe get a LITTLE BIT BETTER idea as to what actually happens with the bike (how parts fit) and not ask so many neophyte questions followed by criticisms of others (me for some, you are stupid reasons) and be beneficial to the site and not on a crusade (oil) which if ya read the files has been run to extremes many times and others I know on this list make their choice in the end.
BTW.
Any reason your list profile doesn't have anything more than your list name????????????!!!!!!!!!!!
Most of us do give a little information.
I don't think ya answered the question I asked ya.
Any reason?
Or don't ya know. ................lm

It just occurred to me what all the black stuff is that I clean out of the oil filters on the bikes when I first buy them.. Its the heavy paraffin chains shearing out of the oil and thus turning to sludge..

or to put it in english, its the 30wt door hinge oil breaking down...


Please do not run "MB" rated oil in honda wet clutch applicatons.

[sotxbill]

If you seach my moniker you will find me on a lot of diesel forums, heavy equipment forums and ag forums.... I used to be on a lot of oil forums years ago. Its been 40 years since I reqularly worked on bikes.35 years since I left the Machine shop. So yes, I asked a lot of quick questions as I am 280 miles from home and rebuilt this bike with my travel tools in my motor home. Doesn't mean I don't know oil as I did that research for a living at one time. You obviously know bikes but DON'T know oil. But I did ask quick questions, and ended up buying a case off of ebay and a some tranny gears from some folks here and split the case and repaired the 305. And yes, trying to put my spare cb engine in the cl frame was a bad ideal. The oil pump is different, the head is different the cam cover is different, the studs for the head are a different length, so I ended up rebuilding the old engine. The cl head will not clear the tach cover as well unless I cut it down, but I'm not in Kansas any more, so machine work in this RV park is problaby a bad ideal. But no manual and this site was my quick reference. Now I have parts book and a couple of Bill Silvers manuals.. off of ebay. Again,, you obviously don't know oil, and I haven't worked on bikes for 40 years but doesn't mean I don't work on engines. Just because I politely asked some questions, you assume too much and incorrectly. I'll thank you and Dave and others for the quick help they gave me on this site. Something you seem to object to. I bought this bike out of a garage all locked up so I needed some quick basic answers. But now that I brought my parts manual up from SA, I can at least see why the tranny was cracked and was jumping. I dont believe even you had an answer to that question, neither did ebay. And no, ebay is not a good place to ask question about the oring chains or xring chains, or to purchase honda bond or ask what kind of gas tank sealer works best. Or how many teeth are on the 3rd gear counter shaft. I quess your not familar with ebay either. But Its great for most every part I needed except for the honda bond. You badly need a refresher on ebay as well as oil specs..

PS.. When I leave Dallas, I will probably have to sell this bike as I will be pulling my diesel vw back home behind my motorcoach. Not much room for this project bike now that it runs ok. Still need to replace the seat cover and it will look fair and run good. I drive it most days down the trinity river as its a nice green belt that runs through the middle of Dallas and so far it's "cop" free. I try to get a good hour or two each evening and do some hill climbs along the route. There are not too many "trails" in down town Dallas. Ironically, the "snuff or nots" seem too loud now. I'm bidding on two more bikes..(bit of insanity) Since I'm stuck here and cant get to my heavy equipment shop back home. And yes, the last bike I had when I was a kid was a cl77.. but I did have a sport 50, 65, 90, a cub50(took it on trade) 160, 350, and x6 suzuki during those years. Later I inherited a gold wing as an adult, but due to workload and travel at that time in my life, I rebuilt the carbs and sold it.

and to your question about which way someone comes out,, I was hatched so you question is a bit ridiculous at best. Were you a breeched baby? Why would someone ask such a stuipid question? Does you belly button stick out? Do you take meds? Does your dog bite? Do you hear voices talking to you? (Sorry, got a bit carried away.) As to stupid questions, does anyone use the tube lock on the extra hole in the rim?? Why is the hole there if the tube lock is not used? Probably get that answer off of ebay... YOU THINK???? And my profile.. you want my blood type? Since I dont have anything to sell, I dont need much of a profile.

Wow,, mapquest shows 5 bike shops in kerrville now... The shop I used was on hwy16 if I remember correctly, but 41 years is a long time for me to remember exactly where that shop was located. I did buy a lot of clutch, brake cables, and plugs from them at the time.


Lets just agree to drink a beer and call it a day. At least we have focused a lot of attention on oil and come up with some good choices and info for the uses of this site. And hopefully beat this dead horse enough. Be safe and enjoy your rides... Its been fun... If you ever get down my way and need some tractor parts or a good tractor let me know... Its still one of my hobbies when I'm home long enough.Bill

In my opinion if ya would spend as much time obtaining info/data which is available on eBay and other sources as ya do with the oil thing ya could educate yourself as to how and why the bike ya bought works and maybe get a LITTLE BIT BETTER idea as to what actually happens with the bike (how parts fit) and not ask so many neophyte questions followed by criticisms of others (me for some, you are stupid reasons) and be beneficial to the site and not on a crusade (oil) which if ya read the files has been run to extremes many times and others I know on this list make their choice in the end.
BTW.
Any reason your list profile doesn't have anything more than your list name????????????!!!!!!!!!!!
Most of us do give a little information.
I don't think ya answered the question I asked ya.
Any reason?
Or don't ya know. ................lm

It just occurred to me what all the black stuff is that I clean out of the oil filters on the bikes when I first buy them.. Its the heavy paraffin chains shearing out of the oil and thus turning to sludge..

or to put it in english, its the 30wt door hinge oil breaking down...


Please do not run "MB" rated oil in honda wet clutch applicatons.

[jensen]

Bill,

Thanks for all the info about oil and the links to you've added. After reading so much about oil, one thing isthing is not clear to me yet.

I know that modern full synthetic oils are far better then minarals in general, and not only from the theoretical point, but also from experience (No, I didn't work on these bikes in the sixties, I didn't excist yet)

The only difference between an old engine like the honda CB72 and a modern engine is the way of filtering the oil. To make sure that my engine woul'd exept modern oils I changed from centrifugal filter to a modern oil filter. It works great and the filter is working very good (it gets really dirty after a while).

Since the filter gets dirty (I'm cutting old filters to see what's in it), how would a modern oil in a not filtered engine like mine, get rid of the particals ?, in the centrifugfal filter ?

What is the difference between a detergent oil and a non detergent oil and is it possible to put a modern engine like this because of that ?

Please in plain englisch, I'm woking as a physics engineer, and I'm not an oil specialist.

Jensen

[deaddog]

I go on vacation and this is what I come home too?