30W Non-detergent - Or is there something better?

[hondadreamca77]

Jensey,

Not sure why the challenge; but it makes interesting conversation and to each his own. Riding Honda's for over thirty years now, total rebuilds....0. I always bought clean, low mileage bikes that only needed carb work, valves adjusted, tires, etc. But on engine rebuilds, especially air cooled aircraft, VW's, high pressure scuba pumps, etc....many total overhauls. They all used oil BTW and I used what was specified for them and never had a problem related to oil.....usually mechanical adjustment, if a problem.

Approx 300 miles since the oil filter comment...on 30W, and my 305 currently runs great and balanced on both cylinders. In fact seems only getting smoother as I roll up miles.

When something engineered has specified service/lubrication, I try not to alter that irregardless. It was engineered that way for a reason.

I stand by my first comment "fifty years later". The fact these motors are still running today are a testimony that something was right with 30W spec. fifty years ago.

As a side note; I also believe in Lucas and Marvel Mystery Oil product additives when applicable. Very good success with those.

Ride On!

Steve

[sotxbill]

Jensey,

Not sure why the challenge; but it makes interesting conversation and to each his own. Riding Honda's for over thirty years now, total rebuilds....0. I always bought clean, low mileage bikes that only needed carb work, valves adjusted, tires, etc. But on engine rebuilds, especially air cooled aircraft, VW's, high pressure scuba pumps, etc....many total overhauls. They all used oil BTW and I used what was specified for them and never had a problem related to oil.....usually mechanical adjustment, if a problem.

Approx 300 miles since the oil filter comment...on 30W, and my 305 currently runs great and balanced on both cylinders. In fact seems only getting smoother as I roll up miles.

When something engineered has specified service/lubrication, I try not to alter that irregardless. It was engineered that way for a reason.

I stand by my first comment "fifty years later". The fact these motors are still running today are a testimony that something was right with 30W spec. fifty years ago.

As a side note; I also believe in Lucas and Marvel Mystery Oil product additives when applicable. Very good success with those.

Ride On!

Steve

Ironically Lucas and Marvel Mystery oils are additive packages, that fortify oils. In fact almost the same packages that come in the high end oils from the refinery.

Rings not seating with oil are usually due to high chrome rings being used in a non round cylinder, or a poor hone job. Both will contribute to rings not seating properly. Also dumping the throttle on a new engine can cause ring blowby and put a layer of carbon glazing in the cylinders and stop rings from seating..

So on breaking, use a good oil with no fear as long as the cyl's are honed well, and too out of round. Used to see big blocks come in the machine shop with a bell wear pattern at the bottom of the stroke and that would play heck with the max out of round/ differential spec.. Only the cheaper cast iron rings would seat and they only lasted 40k back in those days. A good set of high chrome rings would do 80k. Hastings had a set of chrome rings with a cast iron lip that solved both problems.


As to 5w-40 causing low oil pressure, as long as it flows, it will work. Mobil in the 70's actually warned uses that your low oil pressure light would come on at a idle, due to the low resistances of the mobil one oil, but while pressure was lower, flow was higher. So if the oil pressure sending unit was set at 7 lbs (on the vw's) the mobil one would drop to 5 lbs, flow more oil, but show the dash lite at an idle. Lots of folks did not like that and chose not to use it.

[sixtiescycle]

I read through this yesterday, all 26 pages. Most of this was very informative and I thank all those who contributed. Comparing these engines to a lawnmower was a bit over the top, I think a Harley 45 is the closest to the lawnmower in that time period. I went through all my manuals to see what Honda recommended, in the ['65. 5] CL72 shop manual, pg 124 note #3 it specifies nondetergent oil. This is the only reference I could find in any factory riders, owners, or shop manual. In the driver/owners manuals, CB72/77 dated ['64 12.], I see no recommendation of what oil to use, CL77 dated ['65 8.], it lists API rating of MS-DG or DM in 10w, 20/20w, and 30. When we get to the CL72 and CA72/77 owners manual dated ['65 12.] they list oil brands and the recommended oil for each brand. Muti-viscosity oils are now listed in these charts. I don't recall a nondetergent muti ever offered in the mid '60's(?). Also my CB450 manual dated ['65 5.] recommends only a single viscosity oil. Logic would tell me from this that by Dec '65 through research Honda now approved usage of detergent oil just as they continued improvements to various other components of these machines. I'll bet there is a service bulletin on this. SL350K0/K1 manuals specifies API SE (formerly MS) single and muti-viscosity and specifically states non detergent and low quality oils are not recommended. Why? This engine is still running a spinner type filter. Through research I use what I use, what I think is best for me, not trying to change anyone's opinion, just some stating some facts and using a little logic. The only thing I can add is do your research on oils containing ZDDP or lack of, an effective anti-wear additive being reduced because it harms catalytic converters.

[G-Man]

Dick

Good review. Nothing in Engineering stands still but Honda are still selling bikes that use the same bearings, spinner filters and tolerances that their '60s air-cooled twins used. Only the oil recommendations have changed over time as knowledge and technology have advanced.

G

[sixtiescycle]

Dick

Good review. Nothing in Engineering stands still but Honda are still selling bikes that use the same bearings, spinner filters and tolerances that their '60s air-cooled twins used. Only the oil recommendations have changed over time as knowledge and technology have advanced.

G

Thanks G.

I'll add one more item. Since these bikes were produced API ratings have changed, ratings that started with M or D have been replaced with S and C. In this article: http://extension.usu.edu/files/publicat ... /FM-19.pdf they give you the new API ratings with the similar old rating. I have checked a few of the non-detergent oils being sold today and so far I haven't found one that meets the old recommended Honda API standard from the '60's, they seem to be of a lesser standard.

[LOUD MOUSE]

OK! I must admit I put junk/crap oil in my engines and every time I ride them I apologize to the OIL GODS that I DO WHAT I DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RUN ON HONDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. ......lm

Dick

Good review. Nothing in Engineering stands still but Honda are still selling bikes that use the same bearings, spinner filters and tolerances that their '60s air-cooled twins used. Only the oil recommendations have changed over time as knowledge and technology have advanced.

G

Thanks G.

I'll add one more item. Since these bikes were produced API ratings have changed, ratings that started with M or D have been replaced with S and C. In this article: http://extension.usu.edu/files/publicat ... /FM-19.pdf they give you the new API ratings with the similar old rating. I have checked a few of the non-detergent oils being sold today and so far I haven't found one that meets the old recommended Honda API standard from the '60's, they seem to be of a lesser standard.

[sixtiescycle]

OK! I must admit I put junk/crap oil in my engines and every time I ride them I apologize to the OIL GODS that I DO WHAT I DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RUN ON HONDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. ......lm

Ed, the topic of this thread has had many opinions and brought out some things way over my head but thinking some of them over I can see some points. I normally never post to an oil thread mainly because it gets the "flaming" like your comment above, everyone has their opinion! I've backed what I've posted with Honda's own words, and dates. I for one haven't seen you back up the "why" to use nondetergent oil and would be interested in hearing this for the sake of discussion in a civilized non-flaming tone. Anything I've stated above please show me where I'm wrong. I have too much respect for you by your experience with these machines to let emotion get the best of me, respect is earned. I'm sure the oil gods are satisfied with what you use over "some" of the modern oils which can harm these engines.