What is the difference between a CA77 and a CA78

[conbs]

There IS a difference between a CA77 and a CA78. It is when Honda changed from the early to late tanks. This is yet another instance where the Honda literature is not correct.

Per Bill Silver: "Despite the misguided AHMC parts books listings showing that the CA77 chassis stopped at #901, they continued into mid 1963 (changed after CA77-314731), then switched to the late style tank/covers/kneepads and changed the handlebar configuration, etc."

Bill's numbers are not quite right. The change appears to have happened mid-1963. OldStan has posted that he has CA78 313246 and frydmk1 posted a picture of CA78 314517.

I have several manuals that show CA78 starting in 1964, but that clearly isn't the case.

Anyone have a CA78 earlier than OldStan's 313246? If so, please post a picture of your frame number.

[bbap]

Conbs,

I've got a red dream with some pretty high spread between engine and frame as noted below. I personally tore this down, every bolt and nut and painted the frame. Before I did, I took very careful note of the fasteners and was convinced that this engine was never previously removed from the frame. It has the "seemed" tank and the newer style bars. I cannot get a decent picture of the frame number. I had to have the police give me an affidavit to present to the local DMV as the DMV also requested the picture. Should be a 1963 Late, I believe.

CA78 - 3111XX - Frame
CA77E - 3161XX - Engine

Steve D

[OldStan]

I'm not sure what the deal is with the spread in serial number, but mine is about the same as your.
FRAME --CA78-313246
ENGINE-CA77E-318291

[conbs]

Thanks for posting your numbers, guys. I hope anyone with a lower numbered 1963 CA78 will add to the thread.

Anyone have an idea why there would be a spread of 5,000 between the frame and engine numbers? Anyone have an engine number close to Steve's 3161XX on a CA77?

[KellieLyyne]

I have a 1963 frame # is CA77-311465

Engine # CA77E-311472

I found out the hard way that the fork bridge is different than the later models. Also, I found that the earlier dreams like mine had different hubs than the later models. I am not sure if you could actually interchange them and have them work. I opted to just seek out the earlier parts instead of mixing and matching parts that I wasn't sure would work together. I was pretty confused also, about the difference in the brake dampners. The ones in the 1963, looked a lot like the ones you would find in a CA95. I placed a phone call to Bill Silver, and he told me that the earlier Dreams like mine used the Dampners that have "dog ears" instead of the "nippled" ones in the later years. Oh yeah, and the later model side covers, DO NOT fit the earlier year models correctly. (again I learned that the hard way!) I am in no way suggesting that I know a lot about Dreams, I just know what I have learned along the way during my rebuild.

[conbs]

This gets curiouser and curiouser....

Dream Parts Manual shows 1963 production figures for"CA77" engines as CA77E 310001-314731
Bill Silver asked the question, "there were only 4731 bikes built in 1963, so how did [Stan's] get to be 6,1XX?" Even better question is how did Steve's engine number get to be 8,291? Did Honda skip a range of engine numbers between the CA77 to CA78 change? Apparently it would have been after KellieLynn's engine number CA77-311472.

Harder to explain is that KellieLynn's "early" bike frame number at CA77 311465 is a higher production number than Steve's "late" bike frame as CA78 3111XX. Not exactly a running change or smooth transition. Depending on the last two digits of Steve's frame, it could be that the change came within the 350 or so frame numbers between those two bikes, though that is cleary just a guess.

Does anyone have a CA77 frame number higher than Kellie's 311465? Anyone have a CA78 frame lower than Steve's CA78 3111XX?

[conbs]

In trying to determine what changes took place in the changeover from CA77 to CA78 it is difficult because we know that the Honda literature is not accurate. Still, I think it is the place to start regarding parts that are correct for a specific frame number. I hope others will post any real-world info that demonstrates where the parts manuals (or my guesses about them) are not correct.

It looks like the change took place in the mid 1963 year somewhere around CA77 311472 and CA78 3111XXX. Though the Honda parts manual indicates a beginning of renumbering at CA78 100001, I think that simply reflects a 1964 type I and not a restart during the 1963 production year. Since Honda's production figures indicate there were only 4,731 1963 305 Dreams, it is my belief that CA77 was changed to CA78 mid 1963 and mid sequence of their 6-digit frame numbers that had started with 31XXXX per the above two frame numbers. Honda's American sales figures for 1963 show only 456 "CA77" Dreams sold. For 1964 sales figures jump dramatically to 10,829 and even though those sales figures are for "CA77", it is most likely those were mostly CA78's and, possibly even including some of the 1963 CA78's.

According to Bill Silver the differences between CA77 and CA78 are the fuel tank (including chrome side covers and rubber knee pads) and the handle bar controls (including star cable adjusters, plain cable ends, clamp-on mirrors/brackets, lever perches with no mirror mounts and a twist throttle housing on CA77, mostly all sourced from the CE71 Dream Sport of 1959).

I believe that Kellie Lynn may also be right about the fork bridge plate being another change at CA78. My 1968 parts manual shows a change in the plates between 1963 and 1964 frame numbers which is consistent with the way they show the tank and handle bar changes from CA77 to CA78. That parts manual also shows a change at the same point for the front forks, headlight case, front fender packing (gray to black?) and the addition of the Honda emblem on the headlight case. Does anyone have an original CA77 with the Honda emblem on the headlight case? Anyone have a CA78 without the emblem? If not, then these could all be other differences between the CA77 and CA78. Anyone have an idea what the change was to the forks?

For the other early/late differences KellieLynn raised, I think they do not line up with the change from CA77 to CA78. The parts manuals conflict a little on the rear wheel dampers, but it looks to me like this was a change in the 1964 year at 102453 for type I (CA78 10XXXX) and for all 1964 type II (CA78 40XXXX).
There are 3 different front and rear hubs with the first change shown at the beginning of the 1963 production and then changing again in 1963 at 312957, which looks to me to be in a different range from the change to CA78.
For the early/late sidecovers, the parts manual shows the change in the 1965 production year with the right side changed at 1003392 and the left side change at 1010862.

I would appreciate anyone adding information or even guesses to this post. If some think I am obsessing over this, well....... I am. But the question about the differences has been asked a number of times and it is likely this thread will actually help someone someday and that is what I am really after. Thanks to all who have helped and who will help in the future.